This Water Tech won CES 2020: Where are they now?

Remember the buzz at CES 2020? Among thousands of cutting-edge innovations, one stood out and took home the “Best of the Best” award: Hydraloop. This game-changing water tech company wowed everyone with its mission to combat water scarcity. So, where are they now, and what makes Hydraloop so revolutionary? Let’s dive in.

with 🎙️ Sabine Stuiver – CMO & Co-Founder at Hydraloop

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Resources:

🔗 Hydraloop’s website: https://www.hydraloop.com/

🔗 Netflix – Brave Blue World: https://www.netflix.com/title/81326710

🔗 Sydney Water: https://www.sydneywater.com.au/

🔗 Hydraloop’s concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X37eivmtgV0

🔗 Become Hydraloop’s next Growth Hacker: https://www.hydraloop.com/post/job-opening-growth-hacker-digital-marketeer

🔗 Connect with Sabine Stuiver on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sabine-stuiver-10325319/

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Full Video:

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The Rockstar of Water Tech

When Hydraloop hit CES 2020, it wasn’t just another tech debut. It was a splash in the world of sustainable living. Founded by Sabine Stuiver and Arthur Valkieser, Hydraloop introduced a sleek, compact system that recycles up to 45% of domestic water use. Think showers, handwashing, and laundry water—cleaned and reused for flushing toilets, washing machines, and even garden irrigation.

The Hard Facts about Water Recycling

Here’s why Hydraloop’s innovation is crucial:

• Water Scarcity: By 2050, 5 billion people could face water shortages.
• Urbanization: Cities are growing, and water demand is skyrocketing.
• Energy Use: 3% of the world’s energy is used to pump and treat water. Recycling water reduces this significantly.

Hydraloop’s system addresses these issues head-on, offering a decentralized solution that slashes water and energy use, cuts costs, and reduces carbon footprints.

Targeting the Big Players

Hydraloop isn’t just for eco-conscious homeowners. They’ve targeted major markets:

• Residential: Early adopters and sustainable homes.
• Commercial Real Estate: Office buildings and commercial spaces.
• Hotels and Lodges: High water usage areas needing efficiency.
• Student Housing: Cost-effective water recycling for large populations.

Hydraloop systems save up to 45% of household water use. In Europe, the average person uses 128 liters of water per day. With Hydraloop, about 55 liters from showers, 35 liters from toilet flushing, and 15 liters from washing machines can be recycled. That’s massive savings!

Australia’s Sydney Water, facing a projected customer base increase from 5 million to 9 million by 2050, partnered with Hydraloop. Why? Expanding wastewater infrastructure is costly. Hydraloop’s decentralized systems offer a cheaper, scalable alternative.

Scaling Up: From Garage to Global

Hydraloop started in a garage. Fast forward to today, and they’re scaling production with a shared smart factory in the Netherlands. With over 800 systems deployed worldwide, they’ve learned from real-world use, refined their products, and are now ready for global commercial growth.

Hydraloop’s vision? By 2035, every new home and building will have a water recycling system. They’re pushing for changes in building codes and standards to make this a reality. Their mission is clear: act wise and use water twice.

The Road Ahead

Hydraloop continues to expand its partner network, now boasting 130 partners in 50 countries. They’re launching new products and entering new markets with tailored solutions, like water recycling sea containers for campgrounds in drought-prone areas.

Hydraloop isn’t just a product; it’s a movement towards smarter water use. With climate change and urbanization putting pressure on water resources, innovative solutions like Hydraloop are more critical than ever. So, next time you think about sustainability, remember Hydraloop—the CES 2020 champion that’s changing the way we use water, one drop at a time.

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My Full Conversation with Sabine Stuiver on Hydraloop’s path

These are computer-generated, so expect some typos 🙂

Antoine Walter: Hi Sabine, welcome to the show.

Sabine Stuiver: Thank you. Glad to be here.

Antoine Walter: Well, I’m excited about the topic we’re going to discuss because it’s been a while. We had that conversation a couple of times on that microphone, but I think it’s still one of these nuts where it sounds a bit like church. People have an opinion on it and, facts don’t really bother them with their opinion, but still.

I’d like to move people’s conviction with the conversation we’re having today. , but let’s head straight into it.

Hydraloop’s Vertical Targets

Antoine Walter: From what I read on your website, you’re targeting four different verticals, residences, commercial real estate.

Hotels, lodges. You’re a marketing person, so I can bother you with that first question. Four is too much. If you have one, what’s the one you’re targeting and what is the absolute problem they have you can solve in a unique fashion.

Sabine Stuiver: Well, there is not one. This is the issue. I mean, every building where water is used, in handwashing or where people are having a shower and toilets are flushed. that is an opportunity for us and for them it is an opportunity to save water. So , marketing wise, it’s quite a challenge because we have such a diverse clientele.

And of course, initially we started B2C. Thank you. So this was like The early adopters, you know, literally building a home. but this has evolved. And of course for us, it is far more interesting , to work, B2B. So, for example, we work with a partner network and those partners can be anything from Sydney Water, which is one of the largest water utilities in the world, to, property developers, to hotels, lodges, student houses, and of course, home builders and private people.

Challenges and Opportunities in Water Conservation

Antoine Walter: You mentioned Sydney water, which gets me curious, , Australia in general has this tradition of the pink pipe and recycling water in a somewhat middle sized loop. So how do they integrate your shorter loop approach?

Sabine Stuiver: Currently, Sydney Water has 5 million customers and by 2050, they will have 9 million customers. And purely on the basis that the wastewater infrastructure to upgrade this for, almost doubling the amount of people would be so expensive,

so I’m not even talking about the clean water, I’m talking about the wastewater, that for them, it is far more interesting to see in how can they, reduce that wastewater and do longer with the infrastructure that they currently have. And this is one of the main reasons why they approached us and obviously also it saves on the clean water side.

And of course , I can’t remember exactly, but they are 85 percent or something dependent on rainwater. So when they have a wet season, it’s fine. But if they have the dry periods, which they have, then they’re stuck. And, they need desalination, which they are actually also using right now.

But integrating our systems , as an extreme de central solution. in each and every building, basically, reduces their enormous, investment costs of, the infrastructure, upgrades and for basically cleaning the water. we haven’t worked out exactly how we’re going to do this, on a commercial basis.

Like, are they going to lease our products? Is it going to be a water as a service product? You know, we’re still working on that.

Hydraloop’s Strategic Approach

Antoine Walter: So if I try to bring it down to base principle, that means that the two biggest challenges and drivers, if I understand you’re right, is urbanization, which leads to an additional burden on infrastructure, which is expensive to extend in the fashion it is today, and would be probably better off with decentralized slash distributed approaches.

Sabine Stuiver: And the second is water scarcity, which means that water risk is increasing, which you can mitigate if you are able to better recirculate water in your home. Absolutely. And there are a few other, important points as well. every litre weighs a kilo. And 3 percent of all energy used worldwide is actually used for transporting water from water utilities to buildings and then transporting it away again, moving it up mountains.

so actually the carbon footprint of water, people don’t realize is,very high. to give you alsoan idea at the moment,in the Netherlands, we are famous for our water tech as well, but also that a lot of the country is below sea level, where I am right now as well.

we have water scarcity as well. , basically, 900, 000 homes in the coming 10 years. Because of our population growth, and 300, 000 of those at this moment in time cannot be built. Why? Because the water utility companies not have sufficient supply to supply them to these buildings. So the interesting thing is now, and we are in discussions, for example, with these, I have to translate it now, because it’s called Boutafel, but it’s the building table, and this is in one of the areas in the Netherlands, and we are talking there with Vitens, which is The largest water utility, with the council, with property developers, etc.

And there we are also looking at how to build water smart precincts, cities and their water saving, becomes a water saver and a device like ours, but it can be other things as well will become the enabler for these projects to have the green light.

And this is not just happening in the Netherlands.

Water Scarcity & Global Impact

Sabine Stuiver: I can give you examples like UK, where now, new areas are being built whole precincts. the amount of water that can be extended is zero. these, areas need to be built with a lot of water saving measures and the areas around it need to be refurbished with water saving devices, so that bottom line with, 500 extra homes, no more water is used than currently is used.

it’s really interesting what is happening.

Antoine Walter: I would follow on question on that, but keep them for the deep dive for now. I just want to get the core of what you’re offering.

Core Offering & Market Strategy

Antoine Walter: And if I’m right, you are targeting 45 percent of the total in house water consumption that you can save what is inside those 45 percent and what is the best place to start?

Sabine Stuiver: In general, in Europe, we use about 128 litres per person per day. We drink two, and all the others change from often drinking water quality and become wastewater immediately. what we did is we looked at lightly contaminated grey water, which is a shower, hand basin, and washing machine,

 what we’ve added now, is that we can use the condensation water. So we collect the condensation water from heat pumps, air conditioners, and wash dryers. this is lightly contaminated water. the largest bulk is bath and shower, basically. And if you, in that 128 liters, if you look at, and I don’t actually have the figures up, exactly in my head.

let’s say that about 55 that 128 is your shower. That is, a five minute shower. six minute shower depending on your shower head. So many people have longer showers by the way, this is the average. if you look at toilet flushing, that will be 35 liters for one person per day, and then 15 liters for the washing machine.

this is what we looked at. collect the shower water, treat it, purify it, and then use it for toilet flushing washing machine. obviously, it is a little bit depending on, human behavior. if you have an hour shower, you’re not going to save 45%.

Antoine Walter: and you don’t need to change, your behavior. Although that I would not, advocate at all. But , our aim is, is that you can live your life. You can enjoy your shower. Yet you save water, energy, and money. And you contribute towards a more sustainable society. I have to ask you this question, which usually Entrepreneurs hate, but what is your elevator pitch to Hydraloop?

Sabine Stuiver: I think we’re just redefining water usage, with cutting edge and sustainable technology. with our systems, you save not only 45 percent of household water, but, we transform grey water from showers and washing machines into clean, reusable water for toilets, laundry, gardens, and swimming pools.

it doesn’t just cut your water bills, we actually are conserving precious water resources. Join us in making every drop count.

Antoine Walter: What you said before about the fact that we can use more water in the house without changing our behavior, , reduce our total amount of water, but without noticing somewhat made me think of the 50 Liter Home Coalition. You’re part of that, right?

Sabine Stuiver: no. We, indirectly, because we are a member of the Netherlands Water Partnership, and the Netherlands Water Partnership is a member.

Antoine Walter: Just because, I know that you’ve been featured in Paul O’Callaghan’s, first Netflix blockbuster. and Paul is very adamant every time I speak with him about the 50 liter home coalition. So I was trying to see if those dots connect, but, indirectly. So I

Sabine Stuiver: Indirectly. Yeah. And obviously, we already have, you know, just to give you an idea, with ours you can save, 45%, , what we normally say to make it 40 percent that is more kind of, you know, real realistic. so that means that we are already, very easily create 80 litre homes.

So we can do that right now. We’re doing that right now. And then in combination with, rainwater collection and, reusing that as hygienic water so that you can actually shower underneath the rainwater. And then the rainwater is collected in the hydro loop that is then treated, used for toilet flushing, washing machine, garden.

we have clients that have 15 litre homes. the solutions already here. We just need to implement them and it can be done.

Antoine Walter: That’s where I’d like to start that deep dive, which is the solutions exist. I mean, I had. Andrew Benedek on that microphone a while ago, and he was marketing membrane bioreactors in the 80s, 90s, which can be used to reuse water in your home. So technologically speaking, we could be reusing all the water in our homes or most of the water in our homes for 20, 30, 40, Maybe 40 years yet you’re entering the market in 2017.

And you’re coming from outside the water industry. you’re looking at it. You’re seeing the challenges and say, Hey, we have to find a better mousetrap, which is now my own interpretation of looking at your path. What’s the. Trigger, , what makes you think first, that’s a problem you want to solve.

And second, the way to solve it is Hydraloop.

Hydraloop’s Origin Story

Sabine Stuiver: This is a husband and a wife and a garage story. And, a bit early maybe, but my husband is a bit old. we were retired and we had had businesses in very different, markets. so we were retired and we’d started to travel and we lived abroad. , so first we did a bit of freewheeling and then we had time.

Yeah, because we’ve always been entrepreneurs and we finally had time to read and reflect. And in that time, you start to realize how privileged and lucky you are and that, what you need to do is, well, that’s how we intrinsically feel. We have to give back. And Arthur, my husband, basically has always been, you know, kind of, How do you say that?

Interested in water. he had a friend who, in a much earlier stage, started to think about this, hey, collect shower water, and this is what he literally did, he collected it, and then he used it to flush the toilet. Now, this was in the 2003, 2004. This became, like kind of an idea, Arthur and some other people, helped this guy because he had a good idea, but he’s not a business guy.

So they helped him with a business plan, found some investors and this became a product, and it was a very small company but I have to say the product was not good. Enough yet. So it developed a little bit. we became also, an investor, but in the 2008 and 2010, crashes, there was no more, money for investment.

new construction was almost, zero. So this company actually dissolved, but there was one patent in there. And that patent. we kept up with a small group of investors, but every year, people dropped out and said, we’re not going to keep it up.

And in 2015, when Arthur and I were living in the south of France, we were the last ones to actually, keep the patent up. Or let it go. And this is what prompted Arthur, , he thought, what a shame. Why is nobody doing this? Why are we still 21st century flushing our toilets with pure tap water whilst two billion people don’t have access to water at all?

And we will have two billion more by 2050. Why is nobody doing this? And then he thought, well, I have some experience with the previous company because , he helped him out and many things, I know everything that went wrong. which is very valuable information. Maybe I’ve got to do it. I’ve got time.

I’ve got money. I’ve got some experience. Let me try. And if it doesn’t work out, I quit. And this is literally what happened. So of course, first what he did is he started to read about all the legislation and standardization because that had changed. , when this was going on the predecessor, there was no standards.

So the water didn’t need to comply with anything at all. And we knew the first market was going to be Southwestern States of America, California, Nevada, where it’s dry, people have money, there is sustainable, mindset. So first we knew, okay, what does product has to comply with, so that we knew , what we needed to create.

And we moved back to the Netherlands. And literally, I lost him in the garage for about a year and a half, two years. And in November 2017, when we were still building in the garage, we went to Aquatech in Amsterdam, one of the largest water, you know, technology exhibitions. And there people were queuing up.

Antoine Walter: which triggers to me a devil’s advocate question, because you’re saying why don’t people adopt that? Why don’t people go for it when it makes so much sense and isn’t an obvious answer to that. Cost, not cost of what it would cost to build it, but it is so cheap to do the wrong behavior.

It is so cheap to take tap water and flush your toilet with tap water. And when you’re an individual in your home, you don’t really think, or you’re not really bothered about the fact that your utility might run out of water. I mean, their problem, not yours. So do you have like a discrepancy because you’re targeting the B2C markets and the ones with the problems are the B2B players.

Sabine Stuiver: Well, I think you’re absolutely right. This is one of the challenges we have. , water is very valuable, but it is very cheap in price in most places. I do have to say in Denmark, water costs 10 euros, per thousand liters. So ROI on a system like ours is five or six years.

Antoine Walter: prices in the UK, I’ve forgotten, the amount, but it was increased with 291%. Don’t pinpoint me on the number, but it is big, you know? think you’re , fully right on that. I mean, I can give you , an additional hint, which is, in Switzerland, met with some engineers, consultants that, that did a study, would it be positive ROI to build such a system in Switzerland where you can’t even get rid of your fixed costs? Meaning if you put such a system, you bolt it down, you’re still going to pay your fixed costs on your utility.

So it’s. reduces the theoretical ROI. And still in Switzerland, with the cost of Switzerland, it is still profitable to take these kinds of systems, the point is when the prices are so harmless, if I’m saving my water, I’m saving one, 2 percent of my monthly budgets.

I mean, it’s nothing compared to my internet costs. It’s nothing compared to my Netflix or Disney plus costs. So

Sabine Stuiver: people don’t even know what they’re paying. what is your water bill? Nobody knows. Most people don’t know. that differs where you live and what is happening. , we’ve known that for many, many years. And if you look at the studies, everything that is happening right now with, climate change and water scarcity and drought and migration because of drought and whatever.

That has been predicted for a long, long, long, long time. unfortunately, , 2 billion people in the world know exactly the value of water. Those are the ones that don’t have it and mainly, women and girls traveling all day looking for it and don’t even get to build up a life.

has always looked so far away from us in the global North. You know, it was always the global South, but now it’s here, now it’s here. Now we can’t build homes. Now we can’t run businesses. There’s not enough water. Now, unfortunately, there are so many different stakeholders. And as you say, as the consumer, because for us, you open the tap.

Comes out, you know, you flush the toilet, it’s gone. There is a whole system around it, which is costing a lot of money. And energy and everything and wasting resources. but we are not paying for that. So we don’t have any, any idea. So yes, in that sense, we need to educate people. But I can tell you what is going to happen.

And what is happening is because it is becoming more scarce. It’s becoming more expensive. and it’s becoming more restrictive, , and this is one of the things that we’re finding that, , we have early adopters, which do it intrinsically, I think 5 percent of population.

realizes that we are all responsible, not looking at somebody else to do it for us. No, we all have to do it. And we want to do it. And we understand that it may need some investment or some change in behavior, but we want to do that. 5 percent in the world is like Trump, I hope not like Trump, but don’t give up, you know, and spend and do and whatever.

And because it’s all yours to take. I’m talking about that very large, big group in the middle, 90%. And those are the people. And that’s why also we created a desirable consumer good with beautiful design. We just, launched our collection 2025, so you can customize your system, that’s the people that we want to approach Because we have to make it super easy for them to have a system in their house. They don’t even know it is there. and you don’t need to change your behavior, yet you save money, energy, etc. And, of course, then it is the investment part. , we know how to get that flywheel going.

And, for example, in the Netherlands, we’ve seen that with solar panels. We need top down. So we have empowered people and organizations bottom up to do this themselves, the early adopters, But for mass market, what we need now is top down.

We need building codes changed so that water saving becomes mandatory in the building codes. then, to incentivize people with subsidies, with the AT, reduction, et cetera. And what we’re seeing in many areas, if you work with several people, the beneficiaries, the stakeholders are many.

If water utilities , can do more with less, that has a value. If wastewater treatment, companies have to, treat less and the peak, which is always in the morning when everybody goes to have a shower and goes to the toilet. , take away that peak, because the shower water is taken away from that.

That has a value. So you can also, in building whole precincts, you can have like, we are doing it in England, you have a reduction, every building that saves water, has a massive reduction on the, connection to the infrastructure, basically. So if you do it like this, and to give you an idea, to build an apartment, recycle ready, meaning that the plumbing is just, that’s what we advocate at least build everything from now on recycle ready so that machine can come in later or in anybody’s machine, not just hydro loop.

I’m on a higher mission. it costs 280 euros we have a, you know, proper research done 280 euros per apartment to have the plumbing done that little bit different so a water recycler can go in there.

Antoine Walter: I’m fully with you. Don’t get me wrong. have more of a positioning question and because you mentioned solar panel, it’s a very, very fair comparison. I mean, we know the similarities between the water sector and the energy sector, yet there is a 10 X factor in cost. So if I’m going to energy, which is produced on my roof, I’m saving 10 times more, so my ROI is more tangible.

What I’m getting from what you’re explaining is that you will be setting B2C in the sense that you have a 2025 collection. it looks really cool. So the B2C element is strong, but the means to get that adopted are B2B2C. You need regulations, you need, economic incentives, you need VAT and stuff like that. So my question here is, did you take it by the North face by saying you want to have your devices in people’s house?

Another approach could have been to say, when they do these new developments, maybe they can take 10, 20, 30 homes, collect them and connect them together and do like a distributed microgrid approach, which is then still sustainable. A shorter loop, but on a bigger scale than an hydro loop

Sabine Stuiver: that’s much more expensive. That is basically, bottom down, more expensive than if you do it by house. And also, if you do it per apartment, per building. Of course, what we do, we have a Hydroloop, you know, we also do a lot more Hydroloop Cascade, which is a modular, scalable, made to measure solution.

So, this is actually a number of Hydroloop units all working together. for example, in hotels, in, sports clubs, in, student housing that we’re doing, in the basement. There is this larger kind of factory of hydroloop units, collectively treating all the water, which is then collectively being used for the toilets or for the greenery outside or for the green roof or whatever.

But all that is still much, much cheaper than if you do it on a,the way that you suggested many, many years ago there was this, hill area here in the Netherlands, and they did the whole area with double piping.

And somewhere, somewhere made a cross connection. They never found where it was and the whole project was failed. And if you do that in the house, you know, if you do this on micro scale, it’s very easy to solve.

And just also for the consumer, you are reusing your own water,

you don’t have the elements that it’s what your neighbor peed. It’s what you peed. I mean, I’m taking Pete’s not the right example. pee under the shower, you know.

Antoine Walter: show it. that’s the start of the company in 2017. And you explain how, from the get go you identified the West coast of the U S as being An interesting market, I guess, the regulations in San Francisco, where you have to reuse, water, if you have a building from a certain size go in exactly the direction you’re describing.

Product Launch at CES 2020

Antoine Walter: So I guess that makes sense that you’re launching your product at CES 2020 in Las Vegas. So that’s your target markets. That’s also like the Mecca if you’re going for tech products. So you’re positioning your product as a tech element and you’re going into core markets. Can you tell me the story of that product launch?

Sabine Stuiver: We were one of 50, Dutch, tech startups that were selected by a tech leap in the Netherlands. Yes. and we went on a mission together with 50 companies. So this is in collaboration with the Dutch ministry of economic affairs. we had a really good preparation, which was great, you know, so how to present yourself to, investors,

how to be more American because we are a bit too, you know, too Dutch. So that was really, really great. And we had to make a lot of collateral, et cetera, et cetera. And I can actually explain to you that I was so exhausted, we were both so exhausted and we, because we had initially already applied for an award and we’ve won that award.

The creme de la creme award. No, no, no, that’s at the end. No, no, no, I’m building it up. Best of sustainability, eco design and smart energy. They have like 16 categories, then you get nominees and we were the best of that category. So that was bang. So we got an extra spot on the CES.

So we traveled, not with one, but with two hydro loop display units. I’m talking 45 kilograms each. they come in three pieces, but I mean it’s a hell of a lot of luggage. It’s one meter eighty by 85 by 80 by 34. so this was our luggage and we traveled to CES I actually collapsed in the plane and actually woke up and there was this stewardess trying to wake me up.

This was pure exhaustion. I actually arrived in Las Vegas in a wheelchair, honestly. And I had all my checkups and everything and I was fine, but I was just exhausted. and then when the show started the evening before, all the journalists are there and they get to hear what is, , the tech trends to watch out for.

And we were on the screen. Somebody made a picture and said, you’re on the screen. from the moment that we were there and we had, as I said, two areas where we were standing, or we had our unit, but we were with our own Dutch group and we had quite a nice spot with an open area. From the moment it opened, I’m honest, we had non stop 40 people at our booth.

I had 20 film camera crews per day. I was just on Duracell, you know, I was just this kind of, you know, on the batteries. It was incredible. And then Time Magazine came to us and said, you know, we voted you in our top, 12 for products of the whole show. There are 20, 000 products.

And then Newsweek came in and we were in the top 25 and then somebody came around and said, well, we are from the best of CES and we want to nominate you for best startup, best sustainable product. Oh, and by the way, there is an overall price, meaning the best of the best of all 20, 000 products. And then, you know, and I still you guys see it, I can never say it without goose pimples because it was just so powerful.

It was just, so it was crazy there. people came to us and said, may we invest in you already? it was just absolutely crazy. And then on the final day, I get this email and it says, congratulations. And you’re not allowed to say anything because they announce it later.

Congratulations. You’ve won best sustainable product. Best out of company and you are the overall best product of the whole show. And this meant not the e car from Sony, not the foldable tablet from Samsung, but hydro loop. And we were five people, we were five staff at a home office here.

Antoine Walter: Ha, ha, ha, ha.

Sabine Stuiver: And of course then it literally went bang. And we were written about, we were interviewed, we were in television all over the world. We were on, the eight o’clock news. It was absolutely incredible. And then maybe interesting to know, thousands and thousands of emails came into our email box and just exploded from consumers to people who wanted to be our partner, who wanted to invest, who wanted interviews, who wanted to film us.

And we didn’t even have a CRM system. So, it took us a few months to get that kind of, uh, in space. And then, investors were lining up. nothing could have been better, because we really needed to scale then. this was January 2020.

And we all know what happened in February, March 2020. The world shut down. So actually what happened soon after that is that, we have lots of requests and we needed to scale the company anybody who had shown interest, their money was evaporating on the stock exchange and other companies that invested in, they needed to make sure because nobody knew what was going to happen.

can call it a thrilling experience.

Antoine Walter: retrospect, if you had been like one or two years earlier, you would have been the perfect lockdown product. I’m trapped at home. I have time on my hands and now it’s time for me to reuse my water. Well, let me do it. but yeah, you can’t remake history.

Sabine Stuiver: I can tell you, I always look from the other side. two of the CESs afterwards. I think so. Yeah. We’re online. So I’m very happy. I didn’t win best of first CES online because that was a totally different ball game. Yeah.

Antoine Walter: you win all these awards and you get all that press attention and mainstream attention. And, that is, I have to say a common traits in all the companies, which are , in your very specific niche of the water world, which is that, People realize it could save them at home and how it seems to go in the right direction and mainstream media do their job on that.

They don’t do it on all the categories of water, but on that category of water, they do it. But if I understand at the point in time where you get that, maximum exposure, you’re five in a garage, which means at

Sabine Stuiver: No, I’m in office, not in the garage.

Antoine Walter: okay, five in

Sabine Stuiver: Yeah.

Antoine Walter: office.

Scaling Up Amidst Challenges

Antoine Walter: Five in an office, but that means that you don’t nearly have the capacity to deliver industrially at the scale of what that attention , is bringing to you.

So how did you build the rocket ship while in the air? do you start? that’s the time where you’re raising your series a, which I get got more complicated Because of COVID, but still you have to do everything and juggle all the bells and keep them in the air. how do you put things in a row and how do you build a

Sabine Stuiver: roadmap?

, maybe just explain the stages that we’ve had in the company. first, in the early stages, it was just starting the company and the technology development. And that was actually up to going to CES. the focus was on developing, innovative water technology.

Sabine Stuiver: Then up until about the beginning of 2022, we were building the foundation and we had the first serious funding. in summer, 2020, after CES and all the investors kind of retreated, we had to look out of the box, because the normal type of investors, we’re not interested.

So we actually found some money in our private network and that was the first investment round we had a serious investment. And then we had a bank loan that matched that investment. So with that money, so in the summer of 2020, we actually, managed to start to build a foundation. solidifying the base, the groundwork for, future growth.

of course, we, refined products, created more products. And started to scale operations.

Scaling Production & Preparing for Commercial Growth

Sabine Stuiver: and also, we have production in the Netherlands, so we started to scale that as well, which is a shared smart factory in the Netherlands. And then from then on, we are, strengthening the foundation, preparing for commercial growth, but it’s preparing for commercial growth.

So to give you an idea.

Sabine Stuiver: , we’ve worked on, you know, getting the production lines ready, redesigning the products for high scale manufacturing to reduce costs, adjusting the production processes, and develop the first version of our training program. in, in this whole stage, you know, we’ve delivered about 800 systems worldwide, , all of this was still like a testing phase.

You know, this was crucial for testing the processes and learning from real world use all over the world. Gaining product acceptance, obtaining necessary certifications . All of this was preparing for scaling up. And now, we are in the phase, we call it extend and expand, which is, scaling up , commercial growth.

We’re ready for it. We have a solid foundation in place. you know, and we’re leveraging our findings and refined products and, making a bigger impact,

Global Partner Network

Sabine Stuiver: this is just to give you the framework, we foresee and we are ready , now we’re going to be selling through our partner network that we have built up over the years.

So we have 130 partners in 50 countries. As I said, some of them are the Sydney waters. Some of them are, companies that sell sustainable products for homes, et cetera. And through that partner network. They are marketing, selling, installing and servicing our products and we are training them and we’re giving them all the backing, of course.

We have offices here in the Netherlands. We have teams in US, Middle East and Australia. And how we are scaling further is that we will be announcing a partnership very soon. With a strategic, partner and that will probably be the first, private label that we will be doing as well.

So we have our own product line and then we will be doing, private label and Finally, which will take a few more years, we will be doing, licensing deals as well,

Antoine Walter: , I’m curious about, Your scope, because just answered the scope question. So , my question is more about why does scope, what do I mean by scope? in the early stages, you have to do everything just because you’re building your sacrificial concept and you have to build a prototype, show that it’s working, find your first customer and , have your proof of concept and then scale from that, that I get it, the parts where.

Then you can take different roads as when you do the scale up, you can say, well, our core is in the way we design the system, in which case maybe manufacturing is not our forte and we should outsource manufacturing. or you say our core is that we understand the customer needs so we can do the marketing and, the go to markets in an absolutely unparalleled fashion, but

let’s outsource all the technical parts and let people , just build our stuff. And if I understand you’re right, you’re doing rather the opposite, which is that you have your distribution channels, which would be taking care of the sales and the localization in the countries. But the core, which you consider core of your company is expanding the production capability up to a point where you might even produce for others.

no, no, no, no, no. I understood you,

Sabine Stuiver: then I didn’t know. No, , we partner with a factory shared smart factory. and so this is not our factory. And so this is actually brilliant because , we don’t have the masses yet, so, but we can scale. , so our core is the, design basically, you know, designing and we have a partner to manufacture.

That in due time, we may manufacture ourselves. Yes. And if we have private label, et cetera, that will be our strategic, partners. that will want to, produce themselves because they have their own product line and then they are adding this to their own product line. But what we have done because we are, and again, this was due to COVID, during COVID, you may remember that, shipping became extremely expensive, you know, tenfold of what it normally was.

Decentralized Assembly Line

Sabine Stuiver: it made us realize even more that the carbon footprint, shipping our products was quite high , and because they are empty tanks, so we’re shipping a lot of air, we decided we have to do this differently. So what we have created and also which is ready right now is a decentralized assembly line.

So actually in the Netherlands, in our factory, we are now pretending. that we have, one part is in Emmen. This is the, basically all the, subcomponents , for the system, that are being created there and the like high tech, technology parts. And then if you walk to the other side of the room, there is the final assembly line.

And that can be anywhere in the world. This is our creation. It’s a factory in a box, we call it. basically there, everything gets assembled. we are looking at three areas to start with, but we are hoping, and we think that within several years, we will have many more and to find partners for that, that where our market is.

We will then bring the assembly line there, , where we will be working with local people. So usually there is also like incentives if you are, you know, setting up your company there. we’re hiring local people, then it’s made in America or made in UAE or whatever. do the final assembly there and the testing there.

And so that is what we have created, but we will do this with partners. Our people will go there for three months to six months to have the whole setup running and then we part. So Hydroloop is creating the products and creating all the facilities for all our, you call them distribution, but we call them partners because distribution for me is like, I get a box and I sell it again.

And this is far more than this, because they also responsible for the installation and the after surface. we supply all the training for that in all languages.

Antoine Walter: I mentioned to you that discussed with, the CEO of Geberitz just before we started recording. what he was mentioning is that one of the hurdles he was seeing to adopting, in his case, a smart flush. but they have been venturing in similar waters to yours in the past. But overall, message was that the hurdle to adoption are the plumbers and all the ones which are installing the field.

So what is your trick to get them as partners when others struggle to get them on board? .

Sabine Stuiver: right in a sense, and of course in the beginning it has been difficult, and we’re not there yet. But what we do is the following. because of CES, but also because we were filmed and then this documentary, Brave Blue World, was sold to Netflix, which was October 2020, and still to date, every week we get inbound from that.

And So our visibility has been quite tremendous all over the world. so basically, potential partners, we now have 130, but potential partners are still finding us, right now. But also with marketing now in areas where we see, hey, this is a very interesting market for us, like Catalonia in Spain, for example, Florida in America.

Antoine Walter: We will do some more marketing to actually reach partners and saying, Hey, you can become a partner of ours. Just to be sure I understand that right. That means that most of your partners. Watch Netflix documentary, find you incredibly cool and reach out.

Sabine Stuiver: Even we have investors. One of our investors called me, saw the documentary and said, I want to invest in your company. Of course it took some time, but they did. what we’re seeing is that, the world is our oyster.

There are so many areas and people wanting our products, but we don’t have partners there. So what we’re doing right now is the following.

Training & Partner Programs

Sabine Stuiver: we have created a training program. It’s almost finished. Whereby, if you as a customer, let’s say you are in Costa Rica somewhere and you are a B2C and you say, Hey, I want this device in my home there is no partner around you.

We find a partner for you, or we contact your local plumber and we say, Hey, who is your local plumber? And what we do is that we say, Hey, you can become our partner. This is your first client. Of course, they get a margin for, buying the product through them. We give them a training. We even give them an incentive, financial incentive to do the training.

The training is no rocket science. Every plumber can do it. And then as soon as they have done the training, they’re an accredited Hydroloop installer. and then they’ve had one client and then they can do the next. And then it’s a business model. this is how we are now creating more and more dots, the world, whereby we are, enticing, these people and we have a whole platform for our partners.

, because we can’t do it all at once, but we’re just starting partner programs to kind of really get more of a community. We have several partners now in countries working together, for example, as well. for them, , basically it’s a business.

It’s not just a sustainability thought, although many of them have that idea, but most of the time, you know, it’s good business. One of our partners, for example, he was in solar and he said, there’s so many players now in solar. This is the next new thing.

Antoine Walter: Makes sense. It starts with impact, continues with business and business is part of sustainability. it sounds like a growth loop and where it’s interesting is that I looked up. your advertised positions. I looked up the type of people you’re hiring and the type of people you hired, and you are a very consistent outlier in the water sector, even compared to other companies, which are in similar lanes than yours, in the sense that you’re hiring sales, marketing, , and even a growth hacker, which is the first ever time I’ve seen such an offer for,a water company. I would be on your side and I would fully agree with you, but. We have to acknowledge that that is the vast minority of companies doing that in the water world. So do they all get it wrong? What’s your approach to that? And why do you want to be so strongly growth marketing focused?

Marketing & Growth Strategy

Sabine Stuiver: Well, I think, what makes us stand out is that, we have created a desirable consumer good. , some people say, you know, we look like the Tesla Powerwall , so it is that kind of market. And look at Apple, you know, and we all want, we have one and then the new one comes out and then, we want another one.

So, but in water tech, very often,

changing my hydro loop once I’ve installed it, because you,no, no, no, you can just change the front. This is the collection 2025. Collection 2025 is that you can customize the front panel. So the height, it’s the, that shape, and you can customize that. So the tanks will be one color. And you can combine new fronts and we will be coming out with new fronts and you can customize it.

So it’s not going to be a new system all the time, But in water tech, many times, and in tech anyway, people find it very difficult, to sell what they’re having, because it’s also very difficult to understand. And I think what we’re doing very well is that people understand what we’re doing and what it is.

It’s not so difficult to explain. so most of the time in water tech, the solutions are technical solutions, and they are big and bulky and, you need an extra shed to kind of have machine in it. And what we wanted to do is say, Hey, it has to be compact, self cleaning, lower maintenance, IoT connected, it comes with an app, of course, everything is a work in progress.

So we have a new app coming out very shortly. We want to do gamification in the next round for kids so that they can, game against each other, who’s saving the most water and, all that kind of stuff. We have so many ideas. it’s a consumer good. And so therefore marketing is very important.

And basically now with the growth hacker, we’re seeing that, digital marketing that is a real specialization. we really want to now go to certain areas and target certain, groups. So, for example, recently, we did, a targeted group.

We did campings in the south of France, so camping owners in the south of France and in northern Spain. Why? Because we created a, sea container with hydroloop units inside it. you could have, a certain amount of them in them. So this would be an insulated sea container with air conditioning, et cetera.

And basically all these campings, many of these campings are having massive water scarcity problems and they cannot water their lawns. Catalonia, there is no swimming pool field in, Andalusia as well. All swimming pools. are empty. This has a tremendous effect on the hospitality.

So we approached all these campings and said, Hey, you don’t need a permit for one of those sea containers. You can just put it next to your building connections are quite easy and you can recycle your water and you can use it for, purposes that you want to use it for. so next to the partners that we have, we go and localize areas, and this is where in Florida, now they have a state rebate.

, if you are a home builder, and you build it with a water recycler in it, you get a state rebate of up to 2, 400. Then there is the Florida Green Star, which also offers, in certain areas, they say if you install a water recycler, we give you another thousand dollars.

So what we’re doing now is that we’re educating all the builders in Florida with a digital marketing campaign, saying, hey, did you realize that this, because it’s since January, these people don’t know it’s there. And they get a density bonus if they build a hundred homes with water recycling in it.

With literally, they get all these benefits, the financial benefits. So basically almost all cost of the investment is there and they can still sell the home and they can get a price for the water recycler, they don’t have to give it for free, but it doesn’t cost them hardly anything and they can build 35 percent extra on that plot of land because they’ve done that.

Antoine Walter: a marketing perspective, I don’t try to compare you to others, just because I believe it’s a kind of blue ocean you’re in, so it’s not really competition. It’s more. other peoples in the same lane, but if I look at the US companies are centering on the US and sometimes even focusing on one coast of the US, the Australian company are focusing on Australia and you are going a bit into

Sabine Stuiver: We’re everywhere.

Antoine Walter: How do you handle that? Are you consequently bigger than them and trying to build something consequently bigger than them as well? Or is it just because you don’t sleep at night?

Sabine Stuiver: I don’t sleep a lot. No, I haven’t for the last years. many of us, because we’re a team, we’re 40 people now , and growing. everybody tells you, you know, Oh, you have to focus. You have to focus. Well, where, well, where, you know, we thought, for example, that certain areas, South Africa, everybody said, you’ve got to go to South Africa.

Brilliant. It’s not a market, not yet, you know, because there is only a very small percentage of people that have money. Then we have inflation of the South African rent. So if we would have focused really there, we wouldn’t have been anywhere. and so I can tell you many more areas.

, of course, we’ve learned over the years. so first after, CES and Netflix, bang, we were all over the place. And then, of course, we started to see, okay, which are our platinum regions? So now we have regions, platinum, gold, silver, etc. So we can have more focus on certain areas.

and these are the areas where , there isn’t legislation that is blocking it because there is still lots and lots of areas where it’s not allowed standards and legislation are always lagging behind the innovations. so we’re focusing now on the areas where it’s possible, where people want it.

then, as I said, either we have partners there or we are creating awareness. So we have more partners there. but yes, sometimes, 5 a. m., 6 a. m., the first calls with Australia all day, and then in the evening until 7, 8 p. m., your last calls, with the U. S. yeah, but that’s part of this, type of a company, and that is also, the people that work for us.

So you have to have a certain mentality, a startup scale up mentality. it’s not the bank where you’re working.

Antoine Walter: You said 40 people, working currently for you and growing plus your partner network.

Future Vision & Profitability

Antoine Walter: Are you profitable today?

Sabine Stuiver: No, no, not yet. So that’s why, you know, we did our investment round, recently. what we aim to be by on top of my head, I can’t remember, I think next year. but of course we have a, high tech, product that is implemented a lot of the time in new construction.

So that timeline is quite lengthy, but if you look at our pipeline now, if you look at, all the projects that are coming up, hockey stick is moving upwards, it took a long time, you know, because we were talking two or three years and sometimes four years from talking about a project and actually delivering our products.

Antoine Walter: I told you that I spent a bit of time by coincidence with one of your investors. Um, as it was, Leading a panel where Invest NL was a speaker, if I’m right, Invest NL just announced that they are raising or that they got another billion to spend.

Sabine Stuiver: Yeah.

Antoine Walter: So fund one, they invested in you fund two, I would expect them to be part of your next, Major fundraising, because if I’m trying to add on everything you shared about what you’re building, it sounds like you will need to do another big boom with. I got that you’re having partners for the manufacturing, but still, if you’re having this manufacturing concept where you have a portion of the way to do which is still developed by you. And then you start up the manufacturing’s left and right. You will need to have CapEx to do that. So do you have a major fundraising on the horizon? Is InvestNL potentially the lead investor again in that new fundraising or what’s the status for you right now?

Sabine Stuiver: we’re currently still raising 3 million and, we’re hoping to be able to close that very soon. So then that series, B is finished. that is done with Invest NL and we also have some other investors in there. I’m not the CFO, of course I’m in the management team.

I think, we should be profitable, but depending, of course, if we’re going to have, these central assembly lines in other areas. it is most likely that we will be doing another round, We have quite an interesting line up already, people, organizations, of course, that would be potentially, very good ones for the next round.

But, I prefer not to say any more about that.

Antoine Walter: you could go profitable. and have something which works. But that’s not the way you impact at the scale that you want to do. , what I’m saying is that you’re 40, you could go to 50 and maybe 60 and then settle down and stop taking the calls at five in the morning and 11 in the evening.

but it sounds like that’s not what you aim to build. It sounds to me like what you aim to build is bigger than that, because the impact you’re aiming for is bigger than that, which leads me to my closing question for this deep dive, which is simple. Instead of me putting words in your mouth, what are you building?

Sabine Stuiver: It’s a mission, but at the end of the day, we’re still a company, you know, and we have investors, so we need to become profitable. it is our aim and it is our vision and we really strongly, believe.

That within 10, 15 years time, , every new house, every new building will have to have a water recycler in it, standard. That that will be, demanded for by building regulations, et cetera, because we are seeing that happening already. And this is due to, climate change and population growth and urbanization and water scarcity.

So, within so many years it is standard in every house. That recyclers in general becomes a standard item in every, every building. Like air conditioning and whatever of course we will transform from vision leader, which is how we are perceived right now, because we are putting water recycling all over the world on the agendas and changing standards and making sure that everywhere, it’s not working right now yet.

We were at COP, we were at Water Week United Nations, where we are presenting our vision and saying, Hey, let’s not reinvent the wheel everywhere. If you don’t have a standard, please accept somebody else’s standard so that we can keep moving because we don’t have time to waste. This is not from a commercial prospect, but it’s in the sense of that we don’t have time to waste with regard to water and the scarcity and implementing the solutions that are already here today.

And that we change from vision leader and become market leader.

Antoine Walter: I don’t know if you’ve read the latest book of, David Sedlak and Peter Gleick. It’s two different books, one from Peter Gleick and one from David Sedlak, but they share one, I

Sabine Stuiver: I should.

Antoine Walter: get you. The trick is to take the plane when you take the plane, sometimes

Sabine Stuiver: I work.

Antoine Walter: Okay. but they share a vision in common in the two books, which is that they see someone down the line that new houses will have the type of recycling that you’re describing, and that’s the electric car, as it doesn’t have a reservoir anymore for people.

Petrol would have a reservoir for water and that the little bit of water, which would bring in the makeup loop would come from the car. And hence you would in that kind of Jetson ish future, you would not need to have a central utility at all anymore. So that’s probably not for 10 or 15 years down the line, but at least the part of the vision, which they share with you is that, homes and new homes should become better stewards of their water.

Sabine Stuiver: and then it’s not an impact companies. Like you’re simply the market leader. I share the vision. sounds like super cool. does. and just for me personally, I have a holiday home in the South of France, in my village. We’ve had a drought for seven years. I have an organic swimming pool and we are actually , changing our home right now. So we are collecting, harvesting. we’re making it completely autarkic.

So, you know, we are harvesting water from air. Okay. Can be done. Solutions are there. So I bought one of those machines. we’re collecting rainwater and we’re recycling it with HydroLoop. and it can be used for my garden, for my toilets, etc. And I think, yeah, more and more we’ll be moving. It’s still now, a bit early days, but we will be going more that way.

Yes.

Antoine Walter: I’m not opening the atmospheric water box because if we do that, then we’re here for another hour.

---

Rapid fire questions:

Antoine Walter: I suggest you switch to the rapid fire questions, if that’s fine with you.

Sabine Stuiver: Yeah.

Both: It’s time for the Questions!

Antoine Walter: What is the toughest challenge in your opinion for water tech startups?

Sabine Stuiver: Changing the status quo.

Antoine Walter: What would be your best single piece of advice for the founders and managers of the about 1000 early stage water startups?

Sabine Stuiver: Never give up. stay persistent and passionate about your mission. Maybe everybody says it, but it’s so true.

Antoine Walter: Actually, when I want to be a contrarian, I’m giving the opposite advice because 86 percent of water startups survive. And that’s a super high survivor rate, which might mean that sometimes people hold on to their idea for a bit too long. And that’s not me saying it’s that’s Paul O’Callaghan. So if it’s good for making Netflix movies, he’s.

Sabine Stuiver: Yeah. No, but I understand what you’re saying. if you’re pulling on a dead horse, you have to stop, and so you have to test and make sure you have something good, but if you have something good usually when you get a lot of resistance, you may have something very good.

And that’s what we’ve had.

Antoine Walter: Well, I’m going to give it a little bit of a teaser here for the people who are still with us by that late stage of the podcast. But that’s something we’ll discuss with Megan Glover from 120 Water. Closing the teaser, what’s the drop of knowledge you wish more investors knew about the water sector,

Sabine Stuiver: That water is the blue gold. water tech innovation is crucial for a sustainable future and not just the future. Because the future is right now. And it offers a significant ROI.

Antoine Walter: what was your most unexpected partnership and what did it bring you?

Sabine Stuiver: You know, I have no idea. I mean, so many amazing things have happened. You know, what do you want me to say? Yeah, Netflix, of course it was amazing, but. I don’t know. Too many to mention. it’s a privilege. I told you I was retired. so I could be hanging out in that house in the south of France or somewhere else.

And yes, it’s tough. and sometimes I wish, I was in that house in the south of France, but it’s a privilege because of everything that we encounter and the people we meet and what we do.

Antoine Walter: I said that, , short question, short answers, but you see, it’s already my second digression, so sorry for that, but you mentioned the people you meet, and I feel like I wouldn’t do a right job as a podcaster. If I was not mentioning a fellow podcaster, how did you meet Will Sarney?

Sabine Stuiver: yeah, I mean, of course he’s, he’s a guru. I mean, so I was looking up. to him, you know, thinking, wow, you know, in the beginning we were such an outsider. I can’t remember, but we started to, I think maybe through Tom Fraber because they’re doing a podcast together.

I know Tom, since we first went to the first Aquatech

anyway, and then we kind of got talking and he’s with Will and he’s such a great guy. And, you know, and then of course, for his water foundry fund, to have invested in us as well, it’s, it’s really cool.

And, you know, with these investors also, this is not just money. You know, what these investors, all of our investors, what they bring to the table, including invest in L is their network is their knowledge, so it’s a collaboration. It’s not just pure money. And with will, of course, we’re very, very nicely connected.

Yes.

Antoine Walter: Super short profitability or growth?

Sabine Stuiver: Growth,

What’s the next profile you’ll hire if you haven’t found your growth hacker? No, we haven’t found the person yet, but we have a lot of interest, but let me mention it now, Growth Hacker.

Antoine Walter: When you hire, are you looking for sector experience or startup experience?

Sabine Stuiver: Well, we want professional discipline. So first is discipline, , scale up mindset, then the sector,

Antoine Walter: Opening new markets or doubling down on the existing ones?

Sabine Stuiver: doubling down on the existing ones. We have quite a few already.

Antoine Walter: What’s that tool nobody speaks about but you couldn’t live without?

Sabine Stuiver: Well, we have just integrated a whole ICT platform. So most processes, so commercial finance administration are already implemented. Multicurrency with several entities because we have Hydroloop Inc. and Limited and whatever. so we have that in house and we’re now extending that with the supply chain tools and production planning.

this is our intelligent backbone.

Antoine Walter: What is the single piece of insight your ideal customer profile needs to hear right now?

Sabine Stuiver: Yeah, I found that hard as well. Water recycling is not just eco friendly. it makes you feel good, but it’s also cost effective. It may take a bit longer than your solar panels. And also it adds value to your property if you do it now because later on we foresee you have to do it.

It’s much more expensive to do it then, than if you do it now.

Antoine Walter: , just my two cents. That one is the killer argument. You’re adding value to your property, that’s Yeah, because who can argue against that?

Sabine Stuiver: You see what’s happening now, if you’re selling a house and it’s insulated and you have solar on it, the value is so much more than if you haven’t. by the way, you know, you have that energy label where you see the colors in A, B and C and whatever, the water label is coming up.

I’ve already seen it. within certain time we will all have a water label for our buildings as well.

Antoine Walter: are you desperatelyneeding and want to raise an open call for right now?

Sabine Stuiver: Well, I said it already earlier, we don’t have time to waste with regard to water. And what we are still seeing is that Many organizations and companies are still thinking about, let’s do a pilot and let’s take a few years and let’s see how it’s going. There are so many solutions already.

We are a part of the thousand efficient solutions, which is a platform. They’re already 1500 plus, and these are commercially viable, Very good solutions that can be implemented as of today. So instead of talking about pilots and reinventing the wheel, we don’t have the time, so please look at the innovations that are already here and implement them.

That’s it.

Antoine Walter: Closing one, what can and should I do for you?

Sabine Stuiver: You’re doing it now, you know, by having asked me to be here for this interview, you know, we’re spreading more the word about who we are, what we stand for, , our slogan is to act wise and use water twice. so thank you for having given me this visibility through this, interview.

Antoine Walter: My great pleasure. If people want to follow up with you, where shall I redirect you the best?

They can find me on LinkedIn, they can find hydroloop. com on the website. We have a YouTube channel, we have info. hydroloop. com for all kinds of background, like technical information, So I think plenty. My name will be mentioned somewhere. As always, like that, all the links you just mentioned, all the places are listed in the description. So have a look there. And, I’m the testimony that we can reach out to you on LinkedIn.

Sabine Stuiver: and just Antoine, if anybody is still thinking, growth hacker, that is me, you need me on our website. You can find the news. You can find the whole profile for the growth hacker.

Antoine Walter: I’ll put the position as well in the show notes that we have a full house on that one as well. Seven, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks a lot for taking a bit more time than expected. I’m sorry about that. I mentioned I’m French that happens. And yeah, hope to talk to you again in the future to check out on your path.

Sabine Stuiver: Thank you so much, Antoine.

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