Their ambition? To turn tens of thousands of cooling towers (and countless more assets) into data goldmines and push the envelope on how the world perceives water technology. Let’s explore it:

with Andrew Collier – Digital Solutions Executive at the Veolia Water Tech Zone

Resources:

Come say hi to Andrew on LinkedIn

Veolia’s water tech zone website

Introducing Hubgrade on this microphone… 4 years ago!

Already praising Veolia’s agility (with Glenn Vicevic) last year

is on Linkedin

Antoine Walter on LinkedIn

Full Video:

Behind the Digital Curtain

Andrew Collier, Digital Solutions Executive at Veolia’s WaterTech Zone, is at the forefront of this grand experiment. He recalls the rapid transition from conventional processes to embracing AI and large language models (LLMs). “AI won’t steal your job,” Collier muses. “But someone who knows how to use AI will.”

This statement is a testament to the evolution and integration of new technologies within Veolia—a company that prides itself on innovation and forward-thinking strategies.

Marrying Tradition with Cutting-Edge Solutions

Veolia’s foray into AI isn’t a half-hearted stab at modernization. They are developing secure, internal versions of AI models, crafting AI policies, and collaborating within their corporate structure to tailor these technologies to their intricate needs.

Collier’s team is a paradigm of agility to that extent, working in sprints to iterate on software tools every two weeks, ensuring that the end products are both user-centric and highly functional.

AI in Action: From Internal Tools to Marketable Solutions

One of the standout products mentioned by Collier is the Hubgrade Water Footprint. This tool aims to provide a comprehensive view of a plant’s sustainability impact, a crucial feature in today’s ESG-centered world. Companies can now visualize, monitor, and optimize their water and energy footprints in real time, using actionable data. “This tool aligns ESG leaders with their sustainability targets effectively,” Collier explains.

The digital team’s strategy extends beyond mere innovation for innovation’s sake. They meticulously validate AI models through curated data sets and expert feedback sessions, ensuring the outputs are reliable and free from the infamous ‘hallucinations’ that AI can sometimes generate. This isn’t just about keeping up appearances; it’s about achieving tangible, verifiable results.

The Broad Brushstrokes of Transformation

Collier elucidates the complex yet efficient structure within Veolia. The company is not only an industry giant but also a nimble innovator. By dissecting narratives like the integration of cooling tower data, Collier demonstrates how Veolia leverages its existing assets to pilot advanced solutions. With over 10,000 cooling towers plugged into their system, Veolia has set a new standard in data utilization, enabling comprehensive analytics that can detect anomalies, forecast issues, and provide empirical benchmarks.

This drive for operational efficiency exemplifies what Collier calls ‘proof, not promises.’ The numbers speak for themselves: in the last 12 months, Veolia’s projects have resulted in significant savings—167 million in operational costs, 240 million kilowatt hours of energy, and 14 billion gallons of water.

From Policy to Practicality

Veolia’s reach into AI hasn’t been without its hurdles. The all-encompassing reach of Collier’s digital arm necessitates a delicate balance of internal policies and external expectations. While internal experimentation is a given, extending these capabilities to external customers requires not just technical robustness but also legal finesse.

The potential for a fully automated plant is tantalizing but still on the horizon. For now, AI serves as an enhancer rather than a replacement. “Think of it as pairing expertise with efficiency,” Collier says, painting a picture where human intellect augments rather than sidesteps technological processes.

Foresight and Flexibility: The Future of Water Management

Where does this leave the future of water technology? Collier and his team are already thinking beyond the obvious. Generative design powered by AI sits prominently in their future pipeline—a tool that could revolutionize how water treatment facilities are designed by offering various optimized scenarios based on countless parameters.

The ultimate goal, however, remains constant: to develop integrative systems where data informs design, operation, and eventual optimization, creating a cyclic and symbiotic relationship. Veolia’s transition into AI isn’t merely for show; it’s set to provide comprehensive solutions with profound implications on the global water management stage.

From Internal Adoption to Industry Standards

Interestingly, Veolia’s advancements also signal a broader shift in the industry. Smaller startups and corporates alike stand on the brink of integrating AI at a level previously thought unviable or too complex. Collier notes that, while daunting, the potential for collaborative innovation across sectors could pave the way for even more rapid advancements.

Proof, Not Promises

In essence, Veolia’s journey under Andrew Collier’s digital stewardship illustrates a compelling narrative of growth, adaptation, and unwavering commitment to advancing water technology. It’s a story of one company not just keeping pace with technological advancements, but setting benchmarks for what is possible when environmental stewardship meets digital innovation.

As Veolia’s new-age solutions roll out and mature, the ripple effects will undeniably be felt across the industry. In a world where water management is often overshadowed by flashier tech narratives, Veolia’s strides remind us that the future of water is not just about conservation but smart, innovative, and incredibly efficient management.

So, as Veolia navigates the exciting waters of AI integration, one thing is clear: the company is not resting on its laurels but rather, surging ahead to shape the future of water technology. And that’s something worth keeping your eye on.

My Full Conversation with Andrew Collier (Veolia)

These are computer-generated, so expect some typos

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Antoine Walter: Hi, Andrew. Welcome to the show.

Andrew Collier: Thank you. Good to be here.

Antoine Walter: You were moderating roundtables today around the highly trendy topic of artificial intelligence and large language modeling. So I’m expecting you to come from OpenAI, but you’re from Veolia. So what’s the link?

Andrew Collier: Actually, we’re using some secure versions of open AI in Veolia, and we’re tackling a couple of different use cases that I was sharing today in those round tables.

First one is how do you make all of this domain knowledge that we have easily accessible and actionable within our company to improve internal productivity? Man, I don’t know if you’ve faced this, but sometimes there are Thousands of fact sheets and, you know, reports and everything kind of squirreled away in different parts of the organization.

How can you use a conversational bot to unearth that and make it easily accessible? That’s one area. Another area is applying LLMs to IOT data or time series data. Can you get a kind of expert assistant to look at that data, categorize the data, start to interpret it and feed some recommendations so you spend less time really in the diagnosis and more time in the.

Hey, I got to go solve and fix this problem for the customer.

Antoine Walter: So the first part I get it because I did it myself. I created what I called, uh, don’t waste water bot, which goes into all the transcripts of all the conversation I’ve had on the microphone. I vectorized it and then use GPT 3. 5 because it’s cheaper than four.

And then you can access that. So that I understand. And I guess at the size of a company like Verlia, you probably have a wealth of data sheets. So I see the use case. I’ll come back to the use case because it’s interesting. But I wasn’t expecting IoT to be a thing because LLMs are by definition language models.

So how do they perform? Behave when it comes to data crunching and maths,

Andrew Collier: you know, everything boils down to zeros and ones and can become semantics. And so there are ways to interpret data using natural language. And there are startups out there that are doing this very thing. Time GPT is one that you might come across.

How do you quickly, without writing any lines of code, figure out anomaly detection or forecasting? I think. A lot of this is going to become more pervasive and, and common in our area. We haven’t exactly figured out how to make that work within our context, but that’s something that we’re working through and we’re excited because it’s all kind of unfolding in real time.

We’re experimenting and we’re, we’re figuring out how do we apply our expertise where it’s really needed and get. A huge productivity lift out of these tools that can tackle a lot of the mundane, you know, day to day stuff.

Antoine Walter: So it’s internal stuff, or do you also intend in the long run to have it open to the external world?

Andrew Collier: Right now it’s all internal, but I hope soon, uh, if I can convince our legal teams to, to make it external. And one area where we think this can show up, uh, first is we have IoT platforms where we’ve got 50, 000 connected assets out there in the field. These are cooling towers, boilers, UF. systems. We know that, hey, an internal user or an external user is logging in.

They’re looking at this particular site. They’re looking at a ultrafiltration asset. They might be trending these parameters. Can we use that context to tee up the right kind of pre engineered, prompts for the LLM. So that if I’m asking you questions about membranes, it knows I’m talking about UF membranes, not RO membranes, because I’m looking at a UF membrane, or if it needs some kind of regional benchmarks, it knows where I am in the world because I’m already in that context of the user flow.

So that’s part of what we’re exploring is not just using chat GPT, kind of the general open to the entire web, but how do we curate a dataset and then make that available to the user in the context where they are in the user experience?

Antoine Walter: I’d go back to the depth of that. Um, sounds super interesting, but I think.

We need a bit of context. What is your role at Veolia?

Andrew Collier: Yeah, and Veolia is a big place, so maybe I can start with a big picture of Veolia for listeners, and then I can say where I fit in that big picture. Veolia, water, waste, energy, 218, 000 employees. I’m one of those. Last year, about 45 billion in euros.

About 41 percent of that or 18 something billion is water related. And in that water domain, there’s a water tech zone. And that’s about almost 5 billion in revenue as well. That water tech zone is a bit upstream of some of the utility services, but it’s creating proprietary products. These are the Z Weed membranes that you might know about.

Antoine Walter: Let’s be specific. That’s Veolia Water Technologies and Solutions?

Andrew Collier: Ah, no. So it’s, it’s partly, uh, Veolia Water Technologies and Solutions plus Veolia Water and Technologies, which is the legacy Suez business, which also came from GE Water. That’s where I, I came through the organization and the Veolia Technologies business combined into this WaterTech zone.

So we together operate pretty nicely. We have good geographic counterparts in different places and we do a couple of different things. We design and build. Plants, right? We manufacture proprietary products, whether they’re again, membranes, chemicals, separation technologies, and we provide services. And we do that mainly to industrial customers.

It could be in food and Bev. It could be in HPI, CPI, microelectronics, pharmaceuticals, but that’s the business we’re in developing these products and then providing them mainly to industrial users.

Antoine Walter: So the five billion chunk within the 18 billion chunk

Andrew Collier: within the 45 billion. Okay, so that’s

Antoine Walter: where we are right now.

That’s

Andrew Collier: where we are. And I’m part of a digital team. Okay. In that water tech zone, and we are responsible for bringing I. O. T. Solutions to our customers again. This is helping them get data from the field to the cloud to a visualization platform to do basic alarming, trending, reporting, those kind of things.

But then we take that data and we have. An analytics applications that we put add on. So for some of those core assets, whether it’s a cooling tower or it’s a reverse osmosis membrane where we want to forecast the time to clean the membrane, or maybe it’s a condenser in the power industry, and we’re trying to figure out how fouling is going to impact the power generation of that unit.

We’re using analytics to figure out how to optimize those systems and where we’re going next. And what I’m really excited to talk to you about is we have a new product that’s coming out. pretty soon. It’s actually out, but we’re announcing it in the next couple of weeks. It’s called HubGrid Water Footprint, and it’s more of a plant level view of sustainability impact.

So historically, we’ve been pretty asset focused. That’s our core understanding and our core domain. Uh, but this is up leveling to a different persona. Maybe it’s that ESG leader. Maybe it’s that sustainability director who’s looking either at a plant or a, Uh, a fleet of plants and is trying to understand, okay, what is my water footprint?

How do I build a water flow? So I can understand the water coming in, where it goes, where it goes out. So kind of a mass balance of water. How can I do that for energy? How can I look at greenhouse gases? How do I understand my risk? So, you know, I I’m operating these plants in these parts of the world. How can I layer in the water basin risk or the plant risk?

And then how do I start to build a list of projects, you know, that are net positive projects. So we’re very good at optimizing again, cooling towers. So can we work with the customer to lower their overall plant? water footprint by figuring out how to optimize a cooling tower. They might work with another company to optimize another asset, but they’ve got the whole view now and we can help them drive down their sustainability, you know, impact.

Antoine Walter: Let me see if I get that. You would have then upgrade water footprints, which is scattered to that ESG executive and he can have a portion of that then still within the Vilda tool, which does. again, build your stuff, but also third parties, which could then plug in. And so you would be kind of building the platform on which people would then integrate.

Andrew Collier: Yeah. The first step is really giving transparency. Like, where are we today relative to our water footprint and our reduction goals? And then we get into, okay, how do we improve that and whether we can help improve that or they take that information and can improve it themselves because they have now sensors that are automating the rollup of those water figures.

At least you start with the transparency.

Antoine Walter: Doesn’t everybody want to be the platforms these days? So you’re on a very, very competitive marketplace.

Andrew Collier: Sure. And. And, you know, a lot of these things can plug and play with each other. Part of the challenge is getting the data to come together in a way that you can make decisions.

And actually back to some of those LLMs, whether it’s the visualization platform that we provide, or whether it’s interacting with a chat bot that is tied into those various data systems, if we can understand, you know, the current level of performance. And then start to get some recommendations on how to improve that.

It doesn’t necessarily matter which pane of glass you’re looking through, but we’re trying to figure out how do you bring all that data together to make better decisions.

Antoine Walter: Upgrade Water Footprint is about to get released. And as I’m super slow with editing, chances are it is released by the time you’re watching this, but how are the different bricks insides?

Ready? What do you build? Do you release something which is like one on person all featured all in? Or is it like not a beta, but a first step, which then will evolve?

Andrew Collier: In software development, we’re constantly evolving the product. We work in an agile fashion. So every two weeks we do a sprint and we release new features.

This you would say is our kind of first beta version. So it’s got all the features that you need to do what we just talked about, but it will evolve over time. And the way that we’re kind of road testing it is we’re actually deploying it in 15 to 20 of our own plants this year. So again, we manufacture membranes in India and North America and Europe, pretty much all over.

Actually, our EHS team came to us and they said, Hey, we’re wrangling all this data from this source and that source and trying to roll it up in Power BI and Tableau. And what we really need is this. And we said, Oh, we’re working on this product here for customers, which is going to do that. And they said, Oh, well, let’s start using that internally.

And that’s going to help us really make sure that it can scale and then take some of those proof points to the customer. So we’ve eaten our own dog food, as you will, before we. We can, uh, we can scale it up. We do have a, you know, a customer in North America that’s, that’s using this now and the way that it typically works is we’ll go to the site, we’ll walk the site and do a plant audit and we’ll make this water map, you know, all the flows.

It’s that mass balance of the water footprint. We’ll tag all their various assets. So we have a clear sense of how water flows through the plant. We’ll add hardware and sensors if they don’t have flow meters here or there. So we can kind of sub meter throughout the plant. Then we go through kind of a diagnostic again, looking at the risk profiles for that particular.

And then it starts kind of working through the ideation of where are these net positive projects that we can work on together.

Antoine Walter: You just dropped some words which sound like modules of Hubgrade. So I’m just going to check. Plant Audit is what you’re marketing today as Hubgrade Plant Audit.

Andrew Collier: Let me just say that Hubgrade is a Veolia brand for digital products.

So Hubgrade really is a portfolio that covers water, waste, and energy. And there are several different products in that portfolio. We do have one called Hubgrade. performance plant, and that is specific to mainly municipal wastewater treatment, although they can do industrial water wastewater treatment as well.

And that’s actually a pretty impressive product. It’s been around for quite some time, and it’s, it’s one of our more advanced products that does a complete automation of a wastewater treatment plant with AI models to really dial in the biological health and improve the performance of those plants. If in that flow sheet and where, you know, there is a wastewater treatment plant.

Plant in that broader flow sheet, we can deploy hub grade performance plant as one of those opportunities to drive net positive impact. Let’s say there’s a condenser tied to a power generation unit. We can deploy one of our analytics called empower that helps on condenser performance. So it’s more about getting that plant level or fleet level view, and then picking all these various different tools that we have in the toolbox to try and make an impact in different places.

Antoine Walter: An impact for you is net positive.

Andrew Collier: Net positive. Yeah. And that’s really how do I lower my water usage? How do I lower my energy usage, my greenhouse gas emissions, helping the customer do that. In fact, that’s kind of how we run our business. We have a process called the value generation process, and it’s really simple.

We need to prove to you why you should keep us around and whether it’s how our chemistry unlocks economic savings or environmental savings, or whether it’s how this equipment implementation or retrofit can, can do that, we document that and we have our customers sign off on those saying that’s a real savings.

And that’s how we prove that, Hey. You should keep us around and we call it proof, not promises. And actually, if I can peek at my notes, I brought a couple of facts. These are relatively conservative because this is just in the last 12 months, what we’ve had customers sign off on. So there’s a whole pipeline of projects that we’re pursuing throughout the year.

And this is what comes out at the other end. So there are about 800 projects delivered and signed off by customers that represented 167 million of operational savings, some of which came through these environmental. savings. 240 million kilowatt hours of energy saved 14 billion gallons of water saved 46, 000 metric tons of waste reduced and roughly 18 million metric tons of CO2 equivalent reduced.

So it’s just

Antoine Walter: that’s for 2024.

Andrew Collier: That’s for the last 12 months. Okay, rolling 12 months, rolling 12 months. And we keep track of that. And that’s how we try to, uh, measure our impact. So net positive is what can we do for our customers in aggregate? And then how can we help them achieve their sustainability goals?

Antoine Walter: You want your customer to keep you around, but you’re water tech. So keeping Veolia around means Veolia operations. So that means that water tech has one of the missions to feed into helping Veolia operations to. Keep their customers happy. Do I get that one right?

Andrew Collier: Yeah. Again, we, we tend to make things a little complicated in the world, but, um, we have different business models.

I mean, we can be providing technology to the regional municipal businesses to like a drinking water plant or wastewater plant can be operated by Veolia North America, but the technology can come from the water tech zone. Or if it’s an industrial customer, we can typically give those services directly.

So civilian water tech would in industrial cases also be an operator. Yes. Yes. Interesting. Particularly in, uh, on the chemical side of our business where we’re monitoring equipment, again, cooling towers, boilers, whether it’s in process industries or you’re using water as an ingredient in food and Bev, or you need ultra high, pure water.

We are designing those flow sheets. We’re typically using the products that we manufacture in those flow sheets, and then we can implement and then operate those plants as well.

Antoine Walter: The product development is the core of. And all the different branches and all is amalgamated and came together. I fully get that.

What I’m a bit more surprised is the layers of development of AI LLMs platforms is not necessarily the core knowledge of Veolia. So does that mean you develop it internally and you are building up that capacity because you say that’s going to be core in the future? Or do you outsource it? that work and eventually do external growth or different name to M& A.

Andrew Collier: I’ve been impressed with the speed with which the Veolia group has been diving into LLMs, right? They, they created a secure version that we can use internally. They published an AI policy very early saying, here’s what you should do. Here’s what you shouldn’t do. There are resources at the group level that we collaborate with.

We say, Hey, we’ve got this idea to tailor this, you know, database and make it available for UF users. How do we do that? And we use their building blocks to make sure that we’re in alignment with that policy and those, that architecture, but we can experiment and that’s, that’s really good. We do that with our internal team.

So we’ve, I’ve got a team, I have a digital center of excellence that’s made up of product owners around the world. We have a bunch of different. Software development teams in Bangalore, India, we have AI and data scientists in, in that team. So they’re doing amazing things with, with these tools and they’re experimenting and trying to realize these use cases.

In some cases, we also partner if we don’t have particular capability or know how, but we can layer it into our product and offer something that is better with a combination of different things. We’re not tied to just trying to figure out everything internally. What we’re trying to do is take that internal domain knowledge.

That is our secret sauce and then pair that with these tools to make things more accessible for our users.

Antoine Walter: You mentioned your data analysis slash AI team. Did it exist five years ago? It did, but it was like two people

Andrew Collier: and it was as much smaller and it was kind of process engineers turned amateur data scientists and we’ve grown it up over the last several years

Antoine Walter: to how many people?

Andrew Collier: We’re about 50 people, which is, it’s not just data scientists. I mean, that’s everything from what we call our team. tech dev team, which does data science. And they, they know machine learning, computer vision, natural language processing, gen AI, it includes our app dev. So that’s front end development, backend development, and it includes kind of the product owners that own these different things.

And that’s not just for our IOT platform insight or these analytics or hub grade water footprint. I’m also responsible for some software applications that we use internally. So we give our commercial and engineering teams tools to do value calculations. So Like I was just mentioning this value generation process, we have a suite of tools that help you calculate what’s the greenhouse gas, you know, emission reduction potential of this particular thing.

Or how do I pick the right chemistry for this particular water challenge? We also have design tools. So, okay, I’ve got this water challenge and I’m building a UFO. flow sheet. How do I use software to make that design process faster, more efficient, more standardized so that we can move quicker. So that team is supporting many things, uh, and they do great work.

Antoine Walter: It’s not a big secret that I’m a former Suez guy. I’ve said it countless times on that microphone as I was in a very, very large team of one being my own boss and doing my own calculations and offers and stuff like that. It’s not that long ago and still, it feels like when I listened to you, it was I mean, my tools were a series of Excel sheets, not even one single Excel sheets.

I had different Excels to do different stuff. And then it was a lot of handworking. And now you’re telling me that internally you’ve built something which resembles what Transcend were describing on this microphone. So some of the coolest startups out there in the field. You’re doing similar stuff internally to Veolia.

What’s the magic trick?

Andrew Collier: We’re a big organization. We still have a long way to go, but we’re trying and we’re, we are moving the needle and things have accelerated, I think in the last, you know, a couple of years. Look, I,

Antoine Walter: but what’s, what’s the trigger? Because exactly you’re, you’re the leader by 10 miles.

Like you’re, you’re three times bigger than the second largest water company. You have all the reasons. To be conservatist to not touch anything and just to keep doing what’s and it’s the opposite that’s happening. So I’m trying to understand why

Andrew Collier: I think people are realizing that this whole generation revolution is a complete step change and it’s not something that is a progression of incremental improvements over time and the swiftness of the response and the attention that I’m giving credit, you know, to the to the corporate team Villa has taken to give this the right attention.

I think. Is changing a bit of the way that we tackle these problems. I still have challenge of prying Excel sheets away from engineers, you know, but we have taken a real hard look at how do we keep a very user centric approach? Like if I build the best software application and it stinks, they’re going to keep using the Excel sheet.

So we really need to figure out how to keep the users in the process of development. So again, every two weeks we do a sprint demo and we bring the users and say, is this meeting your needs? No. Okay. Then we’ll, you know, keep, keep working at every two weeks. We still have a long way to go. I mean, uh, these are, these are not things that happen overnight, but compared to a couple of years ago, I think we’re in a much better place.

And you asked me a few years down the road. Hopefully we continue.

Antoine Walter: I’m curious to understand how you do that. You’re from the U S so you’re going to have. The reference, I forgot the name of the city. It’s a city which is next to the great lakes and which is supposed to be the one where you test your stuff before rolling out because it’s the one representative of the demographics of the U S and if it works there, it’s going to work.

I’m going to find it. So I have it somewhere in, in, in the mess that my brain has become after two days of Bluetech forum. He turned me as in for the safe. It was Columbus, Ohio. I was referring to where I’m heading with that is when you say every two weeks, you’re presenting it to your users in a 220, 000.

People group, it’s not like a town hall where you get everybody on the call and you say, Hey, let’s test it. So how do you select your beta users, your early adopters,

Andrew Collier: a couple of different things. So each of our tools has a product owner and that product owner is responsible for engaging with the various stakeholders, whether they be internal users or external users.

So there are conduit to our users and they will again, run. Beta user groups getting feedback before we launch something. They will survey those users on a regular basis to try and get feedback, or we’ll put up a actual ways to engage with the user in the application. So, you know, they’re going through and there’s a pop up and it says, Hey, you want to learn about our new membrane, uh, analytic, you know, click here, or there’s a new feature and we can kind of understand how they’re engaging with things and we give them clear channels if they want to, to engage with us and give feedback and we’re trying to be user, user, user centric, and then we’ve been really Honing our, our agile development approach over the last few years, whether it’s the way that we manage a backlog of things that we need to do, whether it’s the way that we break that down into bite sized pieces for our development team to pick up and run with, whether it’s the way that we engage at least the product owner and some stakeholders as a proxy for the users.

On an ongoing basis, those things again, didn’t happen overnight. So we’re, we’re trying as hard as we can to model, you know, the best software companies out there, but do it in our own context, you know, do it by pairing software developers with process engineers or chemical engineers to figure out, you know, how do we make the day in the life of one of our users, internal, external, better tomorrow than it was today.

Antoine Walter: I’ve spent far buzzwords like machine learning AI. And the one thing which comes back usually when those episodes pop out is, Oh. God, buzzwords, why are they using that? Do you have metrics? Like, I’m a Veolia Watertech zone or sphere. Do you have a better name for that? Watertech

Andrew Collier: zone. Watertech zone.

Antoine Walter: I’m a Veolia Watertech zone process engineer.

I’m preparing a design for a proposal for a wastewater treatment plant. I actually don’t want to get rid of my Excel because I love my Excel. But you want to convince me that you have a better tool to help me. What are the benefits for me as a process engineer to hop on what’s surely the future, but not my present?

Andrew Collier: Yeah. I mean, there’s always an adoption curve, right? You get some early adopters who are lean into technology. They see the potential, they want to be part of the process. And it’s always nice in those first engagements, cause you think you got something. And then you hit the fast followers. You know, you got to convince after some of those early adopters have shown them, Oh, I did this.

at a fraction of the time or, Hey, look at this output. I only had to do X, Y, and Z. So this part of it was automated. So you can use the early adopters to convince the fast followers, but it takes a long time to get that late majority to, to kind of move in your direction. But

Antoine Walter: what’s

Andrew Collier: the

Antoine Walter: aha moment? What is the, the specific tool in the suit where they say that is so good, I will need to convert to that.

Andrew Collier: There’s no secret, you know, it’s, it’s a matter of constantly working with them. To figure out so I don’t know if you’re familiar with the value proposition canvas or some there’s some kind of elements of design thinking where forget about features and functions for a minute, just focus on this is my day to day job and these are my pains and my gains, right?

Like this thing is annoying and this thing makes me happy at the end of the day. If I can help on either of those dimensions by building this feature. Or, you know, rolling out this new tool, then I will get, you know, adoption and I focus on user adoption on all my tools. And it’s not just Hey, did they log in once during a training session and never come back?

Like we look at how many return users do we have month over month? And for the tools that don’t have many users, I stopped supporting those tools. And I go to where the need really Really is. So it’s, I don’t know if that’s answering your question, but it’s a,

Antoine Walter: it does. Uh, when you say you look into it, does that mean that’s your KPI?

Like you are measured or measuring yourself on the adoption of those tools and try to kind of customer success, but internally.

Andrew Collier: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We are trying to be user obsessed and, uh, and measuring user adoption and traction is a key part of that. And when you talk about metrics and how we hold ourselves accountable, we also within the digital team, we use.

A framework called the Objectives and Key Results Framework. OKRs. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. And again, it took us a while to kind of get our arms around that, but we, we think about what are the quantifiable impact that we want to drive. And for us, that’s driving revenue through these digital solutions that we monetize.

It’s driving stickiness through the engagement and those, you know, user adoption tools. We have milestones that we want to hit, and then there’s, you know, different things that we use to enable that. Building up some of our commercial function or releasing new headline worthy. Product features around Gen AI or changing the organizational mix by bringing in these kind of talents, you know, that helps us enable those kind of outcomes.

So we as a team rally around that, and we are typically looking at how many users do I have? How many sites are under subscription? How many assets are connected? You know, how much data is flowing each day? If I make the users happy, those other things are going to go up

Antoine Walter: when you refer to users. Those are your internal users, or do you

Andrew Collier: both?

We look at both internal and external.

Antoine Walter: Okay, so you you look at both. If you have a split, rough splits between what you’re doing, which is customer facing and what you do, which is. internal facing. What’s the ratio?

Andrew Collier: Yeah, it kind of is product dependent. I mean, for our flagship product insight that’s been around for a long time, it’s like 60 40 internal external.

But for hub grade water footprint, it’s going to be much more external focus because we are building that for the customer sustainability director who needs to hit these particular targets. And it’s giving that transparency. And then we bring the rest of the things, you know, together. So it depends on on the product.

Antoine Walter: There are so That could be a five year in the past question, this customer’s sustainability director didn’t exist five years ago. It’s crazy the pace at which you’re adapting to something which didn’t even exist in the market. So it means you’ve reacted to something which was transitioning in the market, you developed it, and you’re ready to go to market yourself as a company, which arguably would have all the right arguments in the world to be slow.

I’m still trying to To, to make myself believe all of that.

Andrew Collier: We’re trying to, um, anticipate the needs. And I think that I spent four and a half years in France and I got a flavor of sustainability and the seriousness that Europe takes on this topic. And we see things like the corporate sustainability reporting directive, that’s going to drive a bunch of companies to disclose, and they need to have data and good means of rolling these things up that are going to be a big driver.

We see the way that AI can. Help in terms of productivity, and it’s not necessarily coming up with something out of left field. Here’s my, you know, a I digital twin, but it’s actually embedded into what we’re doing. Like we already monitor 10, 000 cooling towers. How do we augment how our team can drive performance of those cooling towers by using things like forecasting the performance, identifying anomalies and then Giving recommendations to the operator on how to improve that.

Antoine Walter: Would it be too much of a shortcut? If I say that the number one asset of your upgrade, what a footprint is disclosure in one click.

Andrew Collier: That’s a nice line. Maybe, maybe we can license that from you, but yeah, I think it’s, uh, I mean, we, we think about transparency, resilience, and net positive. Those are kind of the modules of.

of that. And whether it’s one click or a few to get started, yeah, I think it helps you with those disclosures. It helps you with that transparency. And we’re all going to need to do more of that going forward.

Antoine Walter: Now I have to be the party pooper and the devil’s advocate and the old guy. You’re using LLMs to give you technical advice when they are known to hallucinate.

Come on, they don’t tell the truth and they’re so wrong all the time. You’re connecting so many assets. But cybersecurity, I mean, we have the Olympic Games on the horizon and we see that, uh, Russian bots are spreading fake news about France. So what could it be about cooling towers? I mean, I’m of course, yeah, yeah.

Making it far over the top, but how do you tackle those somewhat legit fears that people may have, especially if they’re from a different generation?

Andrew Collier: Yeah, yeah. They’re legit fears and we can, we can definitely talk through them. You know, I think in terms of hallucination of a LLM, one of the things that we’re focused on is we, we don’t just pick up.

Chat GPT and take the advice that we get from the general worldwide web. We curate knowledge bases that we already have vetted and we know, you know, is good sound domain knowledge for our organization. And we cater those to the chatbots. And then we go through validation process. That’s what we’re doing right now is we’re building these up.

We grab our process analysts and we say, Hey, go ask this thing questions and let us know if, if we’re getting good responses. And then if we’re not getting good responses, how do we continue to fine tune it? And we have found things that we need to fine tune. So it is about,

Antoine Walter: I’m going to be nerdy on. that one.

Sure. Fine tuning, training. What’s the type of thing you’re doing? Are you doing your own model? Because if you only could the size you have, you could do that. Or are you taking an off the shelf GPT, whatever, and fine tuning or even vectorize some data and add it to its knowledge?

Andrew Collier: It’s more on the vectorization of data and curation of the data.

So we can, one, curate that data set to what we need to be in there. Like, for example, if there is any sensitive information in that data set, We can scrub it, you know, before putting into the data set that way you’re not getting a Q and a and it’s serving up sensitive information. And that’s something that actually has nothing to do with the tech.

It’s not like going in and retraining the actual large language model. It’s about curating the content, which you apply the model to.

Antoine Walter: So actually, the biggest hurdle and the Big chunk of work you have to do is clean your own data and turn it into questions and answers so that you can feed your model.

Andrew Collier: That’s right. And we take the help of our experts. So we take a process analyst and we ask it to, you know, engage with this data set and then give us feedback. And there’s ways that we can fine tune that model or fine tune that content to get the right kind of responses. And again, this is all things that we’re learning kind of in real time as these things unfold.

You also asked about Kind of general security. I mean, everything that we’re doing again right now is internal. It’s through a enterprise version of a GPT. So you know, all of our data stays within our domain. We’re not reaching out to the World Wide Web. And of course, in terms of data flows in any provider who’s who’s giving IoT services, we have a host of different providers.

Uh, IOT security measures in place, make sure the data flows are, you know, secure.

Antoine Walter: By the episode two of this podcast, I had Veolia as a guest to discuss digital solutions and upgrades. And one of the things we discussed at the time is, would you at some point go to a fully automated plant? And the answer, At the time was no, you would go to a highly assisted and augmented human that has all the digital tools to support his decision makings.

But in the end, the one taking the final decision is still the human. But that was all long before GPT 3 came out and kind of put AI in the middle. mainstream discussions. I’m not trying to ask you if we’re reaching the AGI and, and, and hence, uh, I can do stuff alone. But we all know that technically speaking, water treatment plants, most of the water and wastewater treatment plants could be running alone for 10 years.

We just don’t dare to do it because of course there’s a risk element and there’s something to manage. But with this new advancement, which you’re bringing in, Merging all the possible buzzwords, machine learning, IOT, artificial intelligence, training, vectorization, whatever you want to call it. What’s the answer to the question change of will we soon or one day have automated plants, which run human less?

Andrew Collier: I think it’s a good thought experiment. You know, we should start from a position of what would it take to have a humanless wastewater treatment plant, potentially in, you know, remote locations or things like that kind of work backwards to solve some of the problems that we face today through automation.

Do I think that’s coming around the corner tomorrow? No, I think that a lot of these tools are still helping to augment the human operator. They’re pairing expertise with efficiencies. And I think we can fine tune things. Tremendously using these tools, but I think we still need some of the human, uh, element in there.

You talked about hub grade performance plant, and we’ve found that, you know, even in a really well operated plant, if you pair an operator with some of these models, you can still reduce energy by something like 38%. We have a case study that, you know, that’s

Antoine Walter: significant. I know the case study and I’m just smiling because you say well operated plants, because yeah, of course, but how well is it really operated when you still have like 40 percent of.

Sure,

Andrew Collier: sure. Yeah. I don’t know if this is a good analogy, but I think about it like, say you’re driving a car and even if you’re on a very straight road, you know, you could only touch the gas or the brake or the, or the wheel every two minutes, you’d still probably run into some issues or, you know, eventually, right?

That’s a good one. So it’s, it’s not a question of, are they getting the job done? It’s how fine tuned and how precise can you be in all near real time to dial it in to a higher level of optimization.

Antoine Walter: About six months ago, I had Kendra Morris on that microphone and we discussed about what Veolia was rolling out, especially in North America, to train a new generation of operators because of the silver wave and how that was kind of Veolia’s move to the market because they were not like binded to Veolia.

They would be then able to work for whoever, but it was a way to train the workforce to have people taking those roles in the industry, which is known to. Have difficulties to staff itself. If I now put that together with the vision of AI and digital tool, I’m going to enhance the human and make the work somewhat easier, somewhat less of a burden.

I have two ways to look at that. The first is to say maybe I need less humans in the plant, and it’s not like it’s taking the jobs of people because people don’t take those jobs. So it’s just solving an issue. The second is to think of what, uh, Meyer, Eric Simmons said when he was on that

Errick Simmons: microphone, that a lot of folks get in the tech industry, but if you’re going to digitize and rethink water, just like folks have iPhones and Samsons, we need people to be thinking about water and wastewater at the same scale or even greater,

Antoine Walter: we need to make the industry as sexy as working for Samsung or Apple.

And if all of a sudden we are also playing with LLMs and AI, we are as sexy than Samsung and Apple, because on top of that, we have the purpose that it’s. Water centric. So which of the two would be the number one perk you would see?

Andrew Collier: You made me think of many things there. So let’s start with the fact that I see this as helping some of our workforce challenges in a couple of different ways.

One is we have a lot of folks retiring and we’re trying to bring in new talents and get them up to speed quickly. If we can capture some of that domain expertise and offer it up to some of those new employees through tools like LLMs, can you get them on board faster? Yes, I think so. Can we now Start harvesting the knowledge of the people who are going to retire in the next couple of years and build that into our knowledge base.

We have to start doing that now. I look in our company and we have Google spaces, you know, where we’re doing Q and A’s with all these experts. Hey, do we have a reference for this? I’m trying to solve this problem. What do I do when this happens? And it kind of, it’s transient. Like it comes into this space and then it, you know, it goes away.

How do we take that Q and A, which is already validated? by our experts and then package that into the knowledge base of these LLMs. If I restrict the LLM to a certain set of documents, it won’t know the answer if it’s outside of those documents. So if it can’t answer the question, but then we can go query an expert and then add that to the knowledge base, that’s going to just enrich that over time.

So I think we need to do both of those things on the retiring side and on the new entrant side in terms of the workforce.

Antoine Walter: So you could have in the future a new hire, which is a human, but trained by AI to start with. AI trains the human so that the human can do his job, which is kind of a reverse way to look at it.

Andrew Collier: Yeah, that’s a good way to look at it. The other thing I’ll say is somebody meant said this during one of our roundtables earlier. They said, you know, AI is not going to steal your job, but someone who knows how to use AI will steal your job. So all of us need to figure out how do I become a more productive worker using these tools?

Otherwise, somebody is going to become a more productive worker and come along. So it’s not like, hey, the machine is taking my job, but the machine can augment it. The human and that’s where we need to you know i’ll get to

Antoine Walter: your preaching to the core here i mean people sometimes ask me how do you do to run the podcast as a side to my daily job which is a full time job well i’m using i counted twenty six different eyes so it still needs a lot of work.

But I could not run the podcast in its current shape with the tools that existed 10 years ago, it simply would not be possible. So I feel the element of augmented, but there are not so much stakes if my podcast is not produced well, why it’s not produced well, doesn’t change the word. Whereas if your water or wastewater treatment plant doesn’t run well because of a glitch.

It’s might go to trouble. I’m just trying to not really not want to be the party pooper because I’m super hyped by everything you said so far. I’m just trying to, to anticipate the legitimate fears which come with all we’ve discussed so far.

Andrew Collier: And that’s why I think humans aren’t coming out of the mix anytime soon.

We’re probably not going to have pilot lists. Planes tomorrow either, but a plane can fly itself, you know, around the world. So I think you still need a bit of that control and these things are evolving, you know, so we need to take it a day at a time. Yeah, I, I try to keep things pretty simple. I build something, I ask for feedback.

I iterate on that. And I think these kind of, you know, things that are reshaping the world around us, we will get lost if we try to imagine all the different options that can come out of that. But if we take it, you know, keep experimenting, keep getting, being hands on, I think we can learn how to really make, make this useful for us.

Antoine Walter: We will get lost, but I’m still going to ask. I want to do futurology now. The next thing which comes out is upgrade water footprint. That’s again, because of my slowness, probably already out by the time. People listen to that, but what’s next in the pipe?

Andrew Collier: I’m releasing some kind of augmented visualization dashboards for our core assets, cooling towers, boilers, UFRO.

And I’m, I’m doing this in a standard way that will allow me to start do more comparative analytics across all these sites. So we anonymize, you know, their performance, but because I’ve got 10, 000 cooling towers, I can tell you if you’re in this industry with this kind of cooling tower, are you in the upper quartile or lower quartile?

Then I want to, you know, continue to augment those with these kind of analytics that do forecasting, anomaly detection, recommenders. Those tools again, should be complimentary to upgrade water footprint, because as you’re creating sustainability goals and you want to drive those net positive impacts, well, here’s some of the tools that we can use to do that.

So I think in the short term, it’s, it’s kind of enhancing some of the capabilities that we have today. In the medium term, I think, uh, taking. This idea of, of LLMs and creating these kind of virtual process experts. So it’s, it’s kind of co looking at the data with me. That’s what we want to make external facing.

We’re still got a little ways to go there. I think longer term, we want to figure out how to use generative AI for generative design. You know, we have solved so many different water treatment problems. So we have databases of water qualities and then the solutions that we built, the flow sheets that we designed to solve those problems.

How do we You know, use all that information to make an engineer’s job so much faster and so much more dynamic so that they can go through so many iterations of different plant design, but then start optimizing, Hey, I want to optimize this for cost, or I want to optimize this for carbon, or I want to optimize this for, you know, this parameter, the other parameter, how do we use these tools to get to much better designs and then keep that model all the way through to operation, these things start to circle back, you know, so if you can Connect design to operation, to the, you know, data visualization, to the decision making and then use the learnings from that to reinforce the design.

You know, that’s the ultimate Holy grail.

Antoine Walter: Lots of things. First, it’s interesting because it sounds to me like you’re reversing the leader’s curse. The leader’s curse, as it said, would have meant that you would be a bit more waiting and on the defensive side, but you’re not, you’re taking it to the other way, which is if you have 10, 000 cooling towers, which are connected, you have much more data than anyone else.

Let’s use it to your advantage and let’s do it. Data crunching. So that’s, that’s already interesting in itself when it comes to this generative design and already namedrop transcends earlier in that conversation with the natural way for Veolia to keep developing stuff internally, or would you just do a move and acquire transcends?

Andrew Collier: And we’re actually working with transcend. They have, I thought you

Antoine Walter: were going to tell me about acquiring transcends. Ah,

Andrew Collier: good. A scoop. Yeah, they’ve incorporated our MABR design into their platform and we have a product called the Zilong and it has a bunch of benefits and kind of alternative. to MBR or conventional wastewater treatment technologies.

We’re experimenting with them. You know, again, we have the same goals of making the user experience and the design process more iterative, more user friendly, more productive. And so we’re, we’re working together to exchange ideas and we’ll see, you know, we’ll see where that evolves. We’ll

Antoine Walter: see. Is it not yes?

Is it not no? It’s we’ll see. Okay. I keep wanting to, to go back to me 10 years ago. and say don’t worry it’s awful now but it’s gonna be a lot better in not even 10 years ago like six seven years ago which sounds like an eternity now it makes sense to scratch your own itches because everything you discussed so far is stuff i can see myself having those struggles so i i get where your user feedback comes from that is what’s next so Having potentially generative design, having stuff integrated.

But if you look now on the horizon, like five years, 10 years, what are you building?

Andrew Collier: That’s a hard question to answer because, you know, five years, 10 years ago, would we have imagined, you know, where we are today? I don’t think I have a real crystal ball for five, 10 years for you. I do know that the way that we manage data today is probably going to feel so careless in five to 10 years because just.

The requirements for reporting, you look at like the banking industry or, or other sectors that are so data focused. And then you try to explain to them how we, you know, cobble together data for different things. I think we’re going to have an immense growing up and maturity curve, you know, to, to get really sharp with.

Environmental data from a reporting and disclosure perspective. And we’re going to put all these tools, that’s going to be the pain point. And all these tools are going to help address, you know, how do we do that in an effective way? No big, like 10 year from now product reveal, but, uh, you can welcome me back in 10 years and we can reflect on.

I’ll welcome you together

Antoine Walter: with your virtual assistant GPT 7 and, uh, I will have a lot of fun. So on a personal note, you shared your IKIGAI today. I learned that we share to be second generation water professionals. That is a human touch, which again, if the, if I’m the party pooper here, kind of disappears with, yeah, it’s AI, it’s, it’s job like another, which is exactly the opposite from what I said 10 minutes ago.

So see how I’m logical. What’s the human connection? What drives you personally in developing a hub grid, water footprints or generative design?

Andrew Collier: At the end of the day, you know, sometimes I take a step back and I look at the work that I’m doing and I, I am very curious still about the science behind it.

And then I think about if I were doing another job outside of this domain, that how bored I’d be so quickly, you know, because I really find the environmental components or, you know, the technology, how it works to separate, you know, these constituents. I find it really. Interesting. And so I geek out on that level and my training, I’m not an IT professional by training.

So this whole digital journey, which started several years ago, you know, has been a fun dimension in the water domain. So as long as I’m continually learning new things, whether it’s on the commercial side or on the digital side, but it’s still tied to the environmental domain and it has a bit of water thread into it, then I’m, I’m still motivated, you know, and, and that, again, I shared the story about how my mom, you know, Was executive director of the Delaware River Basin Commission, and she was responsible for managing a watershed for 15 million people.

And, you know, my dad, he’s a land use planner, but we grew up through engagement in the Boy Scouts and, you know, had a connection to sustainability and community. So those are still part of my core values. And if some of that shows up at work, then that’s the, that is the kind of icky guy, you know, that you’re going for.

Antoine Walter: I don’t want to take you down a sidetrack. There’s so many I wanted to, to, to open here. But, um, yeah, I connect to what you’re saying. So it’s a, it’s a shitty conclusion, but it’s fascinating. Andrew, thanks a lot for everything you shared in that deep dive. I have a couple of rapid fire questions to round it off.

If that’s fine with you.

Andrew Collier: Let’s do it.

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Rapid fire questions:

Antoine Walter: What is your definition of innovation in action?

Andrew Collier: I think touching on Some concepts from before, for me, it’s rapid prototyping and constant user feedback.

Antoine Walter: Rapid prototyping, because, yeah, I didn’t open that door, but I noticed that you have, on top of all the other cool aspects, you describe, you’re applying design thinking, design thinking, agile, all of that, how does it come into the DNA of a company like Veolia?

Andrew Collier: It doesn’t show up automatic, you know, we have to build that, you know, through training, through practice, through looking at others, and, um, I’m a very visual person. So, you know, if I have an idea, I’m going to draw a picture and most of the time it’s going to be the wrong picture, but you’re going to tell me how you think about it.

And then I’m going to draw another picture and then I’m going to keep going, keep going. And that’s what we do every day in software development. Like we have an idea, we make a terrible mock up in, you know, Google slides. And then we hand it to a, you know, a UX developer who makes it beautiful. And then we show it to a professional and they say, that doesn’t make any sense.

And then we start again, you know, and we do it again. But we, we eventually get to something that is useful versus just staying kind of in our corner, thinking we know the answer, spending a lot of time, a lot of time, a lot of time developing saying, ah, here it is. And then they’re like, I don’t need that.

Antoine Walter: What is the most innovative water solution you’ve seen in the past 12 months?

Andrew Collier: You know, that’s a tough one because even in this, conference, I just met a bunch of really, um, inspiring startups. I do participate, um, as a judge and imagine H2O and we’re a sponsor of them. So I always get to see a nice pipeline and actually one stuck out that I was judging and it has nothing to do with.

You know, what I work on every day, they’re a company called sample serve. And what stood out to me was they’re part of the 2024 cohort of imagining show. If you look at some of their marketing materials, they’re so good at getting to the pain point of what they’re addressing, which is environmental sampling and making that process easy and scalable.

And they do it in a way that is almost kind of comedically engaging. You know, they kind of paint a picture of, is this really how you do it today? And then this is what it could be, you know, with our solution that they just nail, you know, the kind of value proposition, which sometimes we totally miss. You know, it’s like, let me tell you how cool my technology is and all the specs.

You know, like, okay, but what problem are you solving? So they started with the problem and then they went through. And so that, that’s something that stood out for me.

Antoine Walter: Which brings us back to the value creation Canva, because that means you have to start from the challenge and then offer the solution. And you’re so right that we too often do it the other way around.

Absolutely. In one word, what is the biggest challenge facing the water industry today? Speed. Okay. More than one word.

Andrew Collier: Yeah. I mean, we’re, we’re inherently slow moving for good reason. Cause we are working on critical infrastructure and human health, but we tend to observe. Okay, what’s the energy sector doing?

And then we should do the same, you know, or what’s, what’s happening over here. And you hear it in the conference, you know, today we’re slow moving. We’re slow moving. So. How do we take a different tact? Maybe it’s just about finding safe places to experiment or safe places to collaborate, safe places to share data.

That seems to be a big, a big barrier, but we need to try and experiment faster. And hopefully the water industry can take some of that, you know, agile approach to solving problems.

Antoine Walter: Who is a water innovator you admire and why?

Andrew Collier: I’m going to use my IKIGAI again. My answer to this is my mom. It’s not that she’s a like a She invented a new technology, but the innovation that I respect from her was in the period that she was running this organization, she had to keep four states, you know, all in sync.

And then in Pennsylvania, where the Marcella shale underlies the basin, they were rolling out hydraulic fracking all across the state, but she dug her heels in and said, you know, there shouldn’t, there should be no fracking in the basin because we can’t risk having any contamination enter into the Delaware river.

Cause Hey, by the way, the Delaware river provides Half the drinking water to New York City, all the drinking water to Philadelphia, where I’m from. And so, like, you know, she had to really stand up to the political stresses of that, get everybody, you know, in agreement and figure out the right innovations from a policy side to keep what she cared about safe.

Antoine Walter: I love the personal connection and also love the policy innovation aspect, which is a vastly overlooked. What’s one single piece of advice you would give to emerging water entrepreneurs?

Andrew Collier: I think keep it simple. Imagine H2O typically talks about focusing on your beachhead market. You know, what is your most attractive market and just focus on that.

If that doesn’t work, pivot, but don’t try to do too many things. When I was judging some of those, you know, startup presentations, it was, we’ve got our first customer in the U. S. and now we want to go to the U. K. It’s like, why? Go get your second customer in the U. S. It’s like, stop. being distracted by other regions or other markets.

You know, you really need to secure yourself in that beachhead and then, you know, you can always do more.

Antoine Walter: How much time does it take to, to, to be like a, an imaginative judge?

Andrew Collier: Not that much time. I’d encourage other people to get involved. It does take a few hours to go through all the documentation, but you always learn something, you know, about the startup.

If you can be helpful, giving them a different point of view, then you feel like you’re helping them in their path. And then you get to go to fun Imagination2O events or fun, you know, blue tech events and meet them and, and, and it’s, it’s rewarding. So

Antoine Walter: what is one water taboo that you broke or you believe we should break

Andrew Collier: every single day?

I hear, Oh, we tried that 10 years ago and it didn’t work. And we just talked about how different 10 years ago was from today. And we just need to stop doing that. We need to challenge the status quo and try from a fresh angle.

Antoine Walter: What’s a common misconception about water innovation that you’d like to debunk?

Andrew Collier: Yeah, some startups fear working with corporates and I understand why. We can be It’s a bit cumbersome to deal with, bureaucracy, too many people, too many, you know, distractions. But I have been in part of successful corporate startup partnerships from the corporate side. And for me, you need to be upfront with what you want in the very beginning and try to set kind of a relationship contract at the beginning.

And if it’s not going in that direction, just be prepared to walk away and no hard feelings because I hate wasting people’s time. And these things can get drawn out. But if you go into it, you know, eyes wide open and at the very beginning, it can be very powerful when you combine the speed and focus of a startup with the scale of a corporate, you know, magic can happen, but I know it can be painful sometimes.

Antoine Walter: Look, I’m guilty of that. So I’m going to let you two minutes to make your case because often start to reach out to me and say, look, we have that product and we believe that it would be a great fit for Veolia. And we spoke with Veolia in. Insert the name of a country and uh, they think there’s a good fit.

I think that’s good If you take it, uh, we can then exit to verlier and everything is nice. I’m like don’t do that Don’t don’t first don’t go to verlier They’re so big and there are so many different entities You can get adopted in the country and that might still not move the needle in another country I might be wrong on that.

You might correct me on that one and the other one i’m mentioning to them is that, yeah, before they adopt you within everything they do, it’s going to take time. And if you’re starting from the roots, it will take time to go to the head. And if you’re starting from the head, it would take time to go to the roots.

So better have more than one path. to not even exit, but also scale. How wrong am I with that advice?

Andrew Collier: No, I think you’re onto many things there. You know, it is difficult. And at the end of the day, you got to figure out what’s in it for both sides. Right. So often a startup will say, Oh, I got a meeting with Veolia.

Like I’m going to 10 X in the next, you know, six months. And we’re so slow that we organize like two meetings in six months. Right. So you need to have realistic expectations, but then it’s a big organization. So we need to find the right people who benefit from the scale of this thing. So if you find the person who’s going to have an incentive to open this new market or scale up this new technology, or be more competitive with this, because that’s what they’re getting measured against, that’s, you know, core to their job, then you’re working in alignment.

Your incentives are aligned, right? Like you both want growth. If you’re just in the innovation department, whose incentive is, well, I got to screen 500, you know, startups and hand, you know, 10 down to the next business unit, they’re not invested in the same outcome that you want. It takes time, it takes attention and you might have to go through a dozen people before you find the one where your incentives are aligned.

But then when they are, it can be really, really powerful.

Antoine Walter: Xylem is a cool kid. I’ve had the discussion with them several times on that microphone. The fact that they have the Xylem innovation labs make them even more of a cool kid. Veolia is not a cool kid. You don’t have the Veolia innovation labs. Why?

Andrew Collier: We do have innovation labs and even, uh, Even in the broader Veolia for digital organizations, we have the birds kind of incubator and we have a couple of different things that get kind of treated outside of the big Veolia so it can have a little bit of oxygen to breathe. You know, I used to run the Suez Digital Hub and this was kind of an incubator.

So I’ve, I’ve lived that life and we learned many lessons along that way. Things like any financing of projects. Make sure that you co finance, you know, with a business unit stakeholder and a corporate stakeholder. Don’t just bankroll this with corporate money because it needs to live on after that. How do you, um, ensure that there’s a scale up plan within the business unit?

After the pilot, because again, otherwise you’re just kind of left with a proof of concept, but no owner, you know, to take that forward. There are pockets of open innovation, either in different Veolia business units or in the corporate function, but maybe it’s not as branded as, you know, Xylem Innovation Labs.

Antoine Walter: So if innovators listening to us would like to team up with you, where would you advise them to reach out within Veolia? What’s the right arm or the best arm to start with?

Andrew Collier: Yeah, there’s no one clearinghouse for that. So, um, yeah, again, it depends on the business line. Are you water energy waste? Are you kind of, uh, regional services?

So if I’m looking at a, you know, utility operation, I’m probably going to reach out through, you know, Veolia North America. If I’m targeting North America, if I’m looking at, Hey, I have a a product innovation, um, you know, you can reach out to, uh, we have an open, open innovation director for the WaterTech zone.

That’s a good start. You get, you get several entry doors. I was going to say, or we are connected to vehicles like Bluetech and Imagination2O and that’s a great way for kind of matchmaking to happen.

Antoine Walter: Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. What can and should I do for you?

Andrew Collier: You’re French, right? Is there a way you can help bring Picard to the United States?

That would be my number one. No, I think, uh, seriously, um, I think that we can sometimes get into a, like, catastrophizing mode. You know, here’s the doom and gloom of, of, uh, Of climate change, and you know, here’s the depressing stats about this or the other thing. I said in my Ikegai earlier, you know, I really, I think I’m a positive person, and if we can approach environmental challenges with a yes and or a what if type of mindset, then I think, you know, we can unlock a lot of potential.

That’s what I’d ask for your help propagating that.

Antoine Walter: Andrew, it’s been a pleasure to spend that roughly hour with you. If people want to connect with you to have more hours like that one with you, where should I redirect them the best?

Andrew Collier: Yeah. Best places LinkedIn. So feel free to connect, or you could check out our website, watertechnologies.

com to learn about our solutions.

Antoine Walter: So the website and the LinkedIn are in the show notes. Check them out. Thanks a lot for having been with me and safe trip back, I guess, to, to the other side of the pond at some point. That’s right. Thanks so much.

Other Episodes:

FREDsense: Revolutionizing Water Quality Monitoring with Biosensor Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 7 May 2025

Swirltex: Revolutionizing Wastewater Treatment with Bubbly Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 30 April 2025

Blue Foot Membranes: The Next Evolution in Water Filtration

By Antoine Walter | 16 April 2025

Echo River Capital: Pioneering the Future of Water Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 3 April 2025

1001 Fontaines: Engineering Sustainable Water Access Through Social Entrepreneurship

By Antoine Walter | 22 March 2025

Amazon’s Water Footprint: Tech Giant’s Quest for Water Sustainability

By Antoine Walter | 19 March 2025

Turing: The AI Revolution Quenching the Water Industry’s Thirst for Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 26 February 2025

Altillion: Pioneering Digital Intelligence for Water Asset Management

By Antoine Walter | 6 February 2025

Flocean: Pioneering Ocean-Based Water Solutions

By Antoine Walter | 15 January 2025

Botanical Water Technologies: Harvesting Liquid Gold from Plants

By Antoine Walter | 4 December 2024

The post How Veolia’s AI Prowess is Redefining Water Technology Leadership appeared first on (don't) Waste Water.

But STREAMi isn’t just another tech novelty—it’s a solution grounded in practical necessity and designed for real-world application. How? Let’s figure out:

with Ori Reshef – Chief Solutions Officer at Kando

Resources:

KANDO’s website

Ori Reshef’s Linkedin

WEFtec

KANDO’s first appearance on the podcast

is on Linkedin

Antoine Walter on LinkedIn

Full Video:

Kando’s Quest for Quality

Water quality is an omnipresent concern that extends beyond mere compliance with regulatory standards. Ori Reshef, Chief Solutions Officer (CSO) at Kando, underscores that wastewater quality should be everyone’s business—from CEOs to the general public. With Kando’s advanced technology, utilities can now monitor and manage wastewater quality more effectively than ever.

Kando’s expertise lies at the intersection of advanced data analytics and environmental management. Utilizing contactless sensors and a sophisticated analytical server, Kando collects real-time data on wastewater conditions. This is where STREAMi, their AI assistant, comes into play.

Introducing STREAMi: AI in Action

STREAMi isn’t just an AI tool; it’s a game-changer in wastewater management (or, it will become it!). It leverages OpenAI’s capabilities coupled with Kando’s datasets and APIs to help utilities sift through complex data, providing actionable insights and even drafting detailed reports and presentations.

From identifying pollution sources to crafting action plans, STREAMi automates tasks that would otherwise require extensive human labor.

Imagine you’re a pretreatment manager grappling with multiple data streams and legal compliance requirements. STREAMi can monitor sensor data for you, highlight critical events like chemical spills, and recommend targeted actions—all while updating in real-time (still through the magic of Kando’s APIs).

What would have taken hours now takes minutes, freeing up professionals to focus on more critical problem-solving tasks.

Tackling the Workforce Issue

The water industry’s workforce is aging, and attracting fresh talent is a persistent challenge. Thirty percent of the workforce is expected to retire within the next five years, while only eight percent of new engineers are entering the field.

The sector needs solutions that can do more with less, and this is where STREAMi shines. By automating the mundane yet necessary tasks, STREAMi frees up human resources to tackle more meaningful work.

Additionally, Kando is keen on being a piece in the larger puzzle rather than attempting to become the overarching solution for all things wastewater. The aim is to specialize and excel in wastewater quality monitoring while leaving room for integration with other systems, thereby creating a more holistic approach to water management.

A Pragmatic Approach

One of STREAMi’s most compelling features is its adaptability. Whether you’re working under U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regulations or adhering to local laws in Israel, STREAMi can tailor its advice and analytics to fit the unique demands of various jurisdictions. The API connections ensure that data remains secure and isolated, providing peace of mind for utilities concerned about data breaches and misuse. (a recurring fear in water digitization)

While the AI can dive deep into legal contexts and expert insights, it does so without overstepping its bounds. The system never acts autonomously but augments human decision-making, ensuring that operators remain in control. This harmonizes with the fundamental principle that AI should augment, not replace, human capabilities.

Building the Future

Kando’s journey isn’t just about deploying an innovative tool but understanding and addressing the core challenges faced by the water sector. From its inception, the company has emphasized the importance of high-quality data as the backbone for any effective AI solution. The focus remains on continuous improvement, leveraging the latest advancements in machine learning and analytics.

And what about STREAMi’s broader impact? Kando recognizes the potential for even greater integration and is floating the idea of a more accessible, light version of STREAMi available to a broader audience. Whether it’s utility operators, city officials, or concerned citizens, a streamlined, user-friendly version can help demystify wastewater data and heighten public awareness.

I’m told, we may be able to test it out for ourselves starting from the upcoming WEFtec

Looking Ahead

Kando has set ambitious goals. By January 2025, the aim is for STREAMi to become the primary interface through which customers interact with Kando’s data analytics platform. In the pipeline are additional specializations of STREAMi tailored to different roles within the utility, from operational teams to public relations units.

This isn’t just about technology for technology’s sake. It’s about practical, impactful change. As Ori Reshef aptly puts it, quality should be the business of everyone. And with STREAMi, Kando is making this mission more attainable than ever.

Conclusion

Kando’s work exemplifies how AI can revolutionize complex fields like wastewater management. By addressing real-world challenges with innovative solutions, Kando and STREAMi are setting new benchmarks for the industry. As the sector grapples with workforce shortages and increasing environmental regulations, tools like STREAMi offer a glimpse into a future where technology and human expertise coalesce (nice word, I know, I verified, it exists!) for the greater good.

If you’re intrigued by what Kando and STREAMi have to offer, consider visiting their booth at WEFtec (and give me a poke). It might just be the glimpse into the future of water management you’ve been waiting for!

My Full Conversation with Ori Reshef on LLMs applied to Wastewater

These are computer-generated, so expect some typos

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Antoine Walter: Hi Ori, welcome to the show.

Ori Reshef: Hello, Antoine. Thank you very much for having me. Very excited to be here today.

Antoine Walter: Well, i’m super excited as well because we actually changed One letter because last time I had Ari,

Ori Reshef: Yes, it’s true.

Antoine Walter: Ari was actually one of my first guests on the podcast. it was season one, roughly mid of season one, we had the conversation about Kando. there’s probably a lot we want to update, but.at the time I discussed with Ari, the reason for Kando to be in business was this element that whatever is happening in the sewer happens in the sewer and nobody sees it. there’s a lack of visibility about wastewater and you can make that smart.

Kando’s Mission and Evolution

Antoine Walter: Is that still the reason for Kando to be in business four years later, or what would be the number one challenge that you’re solving today?

Ori Reshef: That’s always our basis, we listen to the city from below. That’sone of our special sauces. What we see ourselves more and more, and we will talk about it, is ambassadors. Of quality of wastewater. We’ve seen wastewater a real resource. There’s so many countries in the world and cities in the world that are recycling, doing direct potable reuse, indirect potable reuse.

This is a resource and the quality of wastewater is in our gut. this is something we think that should be everybody’s business, your business, my business, the CEO’s business, the industries, the environments, the public. the first part, as I said, four years ago, this is how we started.

first of all, let’s know about the quality of wastewater. Let’s know about, what’s going on. And then we evolved into, let’s see what the source of the pollution is in an automatic manner. Let’s help the source behave differently. Let’s see the impact downstream and save the treatment plant from, a huge, stop in, activity, because the biological part was dead there was no oxygen and that could have been treated or worse, all the watersheds.

If we look around the world and see the public concern about the watersheds that we all go and with our families and kayak there and swim and everything. This should be guarded with a lot of attention. And so what we see ourselves, is, helping utilities first to cope with the wastewater quality challenge from one hand, understanding the upstream source and behavior and change it so we can improve the quality of the wastewater and making sure there is.

low to no impact on the downstream, which is the treatment plan and the environment. So we started off by seeing, analyzing and then helping our customers to do in action to change the behavior.

Challenges in Wastewater Management

Antoine Walter: But isn’t it a broad challenge here? When you say that you go from the watershed up to the plant, a ton of stuff is happening in between those points How do you focus?

Ori Reshef: As you said, we are situated in the middle. It’s a nice place to be. in the sewage network, which is exactly in the middle between the upstream, which is the city. The industry is life that produces the wastewater and the downstream, which is the treatment plant and the watersheds and the environment.

so quality as we see these everywhere, our first focus is to help pre treatment find the source. and change the behavior of the source so we can reduce the amount of pollution increase the quality sewage system and reduce the impact on the treatment plant.

That’s the first thing and what we see is that by doing that, our basic job, which is, helped understand what is the source of the pollution, change its behavior, alert and make sure that the people downstream in the treatment bed are completely aware of what’s coming in their way so they can prepare.

we understand that we have a lot of treasures that we cannot keep only to ourselves, that we need to, talk about inside the utility to the asset management people. For example, if you have breweries in your city, and they’re producing waste that, is very bad for concrete pipes, you want to know that and change.

So asset management, marketing, public relations, everybody is concerned by that. And what we’re doing is from our core business. which is, improving wastewater quality by finding the source and reducing the impact downstream. going more and more, and we’ll talk about it through GenAI, which helps us build quick solutions, but completely full based on our analytics.

Focus, and then spread the good news.

Antoine Walter: go to Jenny. I,because I think that’s the main topic for today, but before that, I’d like to understand where you’re coming from.

Ori’s Career Shift to Kando

Antoine Walter: you were having a good life and a great career up to last year. And I don’t get why you wanted to go into the poop side of the story, because you’re with SAP until July, 2023.

And I’m wondering how much of a jump it is to come out of a company like SAP and say, Oh,all of a sudden those things that were under our feet, which are just conveying poop, that’s going to be my bread and butter. so what’s your surprise when you jump ship?

Ori Reshef: all my life. I’ve been in large enterprises or the startups, but always around data, data analysis, data science, startup I was involved in was bought by, another, American startup did big data indexing, at SAP. I headed the product team for the customer data platform.

So it’s the unification of data, understanding insights and activation of, marketing automations to customers. my first love is data and my second love is nature. the planet. I always wanted to combine these two. I met Ari eight or nine years ago and we started talking I said, Oh my God, this is really interesting.

This is data that is so hard to mine. And to have and to understand, but it’s so rich. I wish I could get my hands on it. I spoke for a couple of years and I was consulting a bit as a friend because I was really excited about, the mission and really protecting people and the environment.

 at one point I said, I’m old enough to say, I want to do something good not just for me, or the commercial side, but also something that will be of impact. A real impact that I can be proud of and tell my kids, listen, this is what dad is doing there for now, making jokes about the dad working in the poop business, , but they do appreciate it.

And I enjoy every moment of it. So the jump was. a very different business. What are utilities from, the big retailers or the banks, insurance companies, et cetera. you meet different people, but that’s the beauty of it. I met amazing people that are purpose driven and are there for a real reason, and they have this passion towards what they’re doing,

You cannot beat that. So I’m very happy with that.

Introducing STREAMi: The New Product

Antoine Walter: Let’s get to that Gen AI topic. I needed to have a special excuse to have Kando back and to investigate your path. And that special excuse came with a product you’re launching. I don’t know if it’s yet launched because I couldn’t play around with it,

Ori Reshef: True.

Antoine Walter: Streamy. And you know what, instead of me to explain what Streamy is, I’ll let you do the elevator pitch to Streamy and then we can discuss it.

Ori Reshef: Okay. So I’ll even do better. We’ll, have, our friends Streami. Join our conversation and let herintroduce herself. Hey Streamy Tell me what is it exactly that you do for a pretreatment manager, please?

How STREAMi Works

Ori Reshef: As a pretreatment manager, I help you by providing insights on upstream pollution sources And the overall health of your network. This includes one data monitoring. I ensure the quality of data from sensors in wastewater systems, helping to identify and prioritize pollution sources, such as factories or facilities, which can impact treatment efficiency to event alerts.

I highlight critical events like chemical spills or blockages that might cause overflows or system inefficiencies. Three action plans. I recommend targeted actions like increased sampling or infrastructure improvements to mitigate pollution risks. Let me know if you want details on any of these aspects.

 No, just say hello to Antoine and the amazing podcast we’re in.

 Hello Antoine to this amazing podcast. Glad to be part of it.

Antoine Walter: Glad you’re here, Streamy.

what is it? Is it like, , I can speak to chat GPT. I recall maybe six months ago, what did Corey did live where he was speaking water with chat GPT and you can’t speak water with chat GPT to a certain extent, it will simply not be as specific as Streamy just was.

So what is Streamy?

Ori Reshef: So, Streamy, sits under the shoulders of giants, let’s start with the basics.

The Role of GenAI in STREAMi

Ori Reshef: How do you create a stream? open AI application. Well, you have three ways of making the AI do a specific task and be an expert. this is part of the answer your question.

What is Streamy first of all? It’s an expert in wastewater. And, a waste water quality. It’s an expert in Kando. and how can you do that? There are three ways. The first way, is to train a LLM model. Not in our league. This is something that Microsoft will do that. Google, , Tesla, , Facebook, et cetera.

All the huge ones. They will have It costs tremendous amounts of money. Even in the American presidential, campaign. Now you hear debates on how much energy. And going into nuclear energy to power the training of a I model so can do. We think highly of ourselves, but we’re not that big. and

we cannot train the model. So that’s one way and not for a company our size. the second one is fine tuning. It’s not really building and modern. It’s taking a modern and, and training it on, on a certain percentage and making it, more adapted to your domain of expertise.

Also very expensive. We might get there, and, , and we’ll see how on the it done. By the way, alpha is already launched, two weeks ago and we have two customers already working with it, . Fine tuning will be the second way, but the third way, which is the quickest way, which I actually recommend to everyone, is what we call rack, which is basically, augmented research, generation, which is, Give context.

This is why when you talk to chat GPT normally it will be okay ish.It read Wikipedia, it read some articles in Water Online, etc, etc. But what does it know about a specific city in the U. S. and the industries and the risks and what is the chemical composition and the lab results? It doesn’t know anything, so I need to give it context.

context.what we did with our Streamy is basically we’re working on top of open AI. This is the engine we are using. We’re using our own API’s. we’re using the analytical layer. to remind everybody Kando has contactless sensors inside the sewage system that transmits in real time the data into an analytical server that has algorithmic pipeline that goes through and creates basically , those quality events, qualifies them, quantifies them, understands them, enriches them, and then arrives into insight.

Thank you. On top of that, all this server has API. So, we question with open AI, the KandoAPIs and server, and we give it , real time context. This is the situation right now. We give it all the legal, context of the EPA regulation, the permits, our own knowledge, Kando has, extensive knowledge of subject matter experts with years and years.

Are these one of them? Of course, our founder and Zohar, our co founder are real experts in wastewater. And we have a team, subject matter experts that can help us. Andtake their documentation, their knowledge and put it in instructions inside the system the end user should only ask a simple question and the simple question will get all this context and go to open AI and grab an answer that is with this context.

And then we leverage the two things what can do is doing all the analytical stuff and then open AI will give us. The answer, the formulation analytics, it’s amazing. I’ll show you some example. It’s mind blowing. I bet you played around quite extensively with these kinds of tools.

but our customers are now using it. And we’re very, very, very, attentive of data security and everything. So they’re discovering new stuff.

You’re asking questions I didn’t think of.

Antoine Walter: we’ll go to that because I’m interested in the why, but just for me to put a bit of context and to understand, beginning of this year, I was creating something which I call the H2 Oracle, which was basically, I took all the transcripts of all the people who went on the podcast.

So Ari’s insight was inside and I did a vectorization of that. And. It’s this rag element you mentioned. so used it, but I was also restricting chat GPT. So that’s chat GPT could not use its own knowledge. it could only use what was inside , my vector was pretty cool. got a lot of traction, got a good success at some point had to unplug it just because he’d got too much traction.

And these APIs costs so much that I couldn’t afford to have like, like, like a freebie with myWhich was costing me like 500 to 1000 per month in API. So, but what’s different in what you’re doing is that you have that layer of vectorization of the legal context and the expert insights.

But what you’re adding to that is that you’re connecting to the Kando API, which means that you have an updating and, live interaction with what’s in the real world. so it’s not like just my garage project you went. Above and beyond, because you have that API layer.

Ori Reshef: Yes.

Antoine Walter: Do you still enable ChatGPT to browse the web and to look for its internal knowledge?

Or do you restrict it to your vectors and APIs? what are the boundaries?

Ori Reshef: So I don’t like boundaries with this kind of tools because we are in exploratory mode and we don’t know what we don’t know. We’re talking with the open AI guys and then we say, Hey guys, we’re chatting with them because we’re developing and we need their support, working, not working, this API, et cetera.

And we’re asking them, Hey guys, can we do this? And they go, maybe. Test it and please tell us when you come back because we want to know.

Customer Feedback and Future Plans

Ori Reshef: The thing is this monster can do so much and what we did, we launched it with two of our customers. Now the third one is, next week we’ll go live. And what we told them, we told them the following.

This is an alpha product and we’ve chose , the more, advanced customers , that we have, please break it, please do anything you want, ask any questions. we added the feature, of thumbs up, thumbs down and comments. we record everything, every question, every answer, so we can analyze it later on.

We have, what we call inside the database, which is approachable with API’s, a risk assessment map, right? We know the entire geographical area with the coordinates of the industries with a lot of calculation on risks, etc.

And we didn’t put it in the spec of Streamy and it was not the intention. But one of our sales executive said, let me try something. Can you give me a risk assessment of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5? And it did. And it was perfectly good. the exciting thing about this is that we don’t know where the boundaries are, This is the time where we permit ourselves to go wild and go, as far and crazy as we can. But as you said, at the end of the day, our answers should be spot on. what you’re referring to is the very amusing, sometimes, effect of hallucinations of the model. Because it is trained to give an answer no matter what.

 have a timeline, you need to spit out an answer. But this can be completely nonsensical, and we’re talking about a critical system, so we cannot say nonsensical stuff., short answer now, go as wild as you can. We’ll close it down at the end of the, pilot period. our customers are already going crazy about it because it really shortens the time

Antoine Walter: but let’s go into the why. Because there are two possible whys. And I hope for you that you’re for the second one, the first way is, you know, everybody’s speaking about, chat GPT and,Gemini and,whoever else you want in the word, because it’s not just open AI, but okay, it’s super trendy.

So we need to do something about it. That would be kind of a lame reason, but why not? And the second reason is that you identify something very clear where you say here, it’s going to bring tremendous values to our end users. I hope for you it’s the second one, but if it’s the second one, what is that specific stuff you wanted to achieve

Ori Reshef: so it’s the second one. And there are two problems that we wanted to solve that are interwind. because we believe quality is the most important thing that everybody should be concerned with. And we sometimes saw that, even CEOs and executives are talking, they understand the importance of quality, but they do tell you no.

Addressing Workforce Issues with Technology

Ori Reshef: I have this list of things to do and this list of people that should do it and everything is prioritized one of the major concerns of the water industry around the world is workforce I think the statistics is 30 percent are going on retirement in the next five years and 8 percent of youngsters are going in because you can imagine that young engineers finishing some kind of engineering school will probably go work for Google or Facebook or Amazon than their water utility.

, you need to have a good reason or a good internal motivation to say I don’t want to make this large amounts of money when I’m young, I want to go directly to what my heart is seeking, and it’s a hard domain. it’s not always a easy job. I think one of the more interesting jobs in the world, but not very attracting.

So we have a workforce issue. That’s one problem. it prevents our customers from doing the job. They need still to do their job and then job. Let’s not forget it. What the utilities give us clean water. And protect us and recover the wastewater and protect our health and the environment. Super important mission and they don’t have people.

They really don’t have people. They struggle with it. The second thing is is an analytical system. at the end of the day, we have a dashboard with graphs, pie charts, and, all kinds of insights that, a smart person should look. Analyze, understand, write an email, write a presentation, call a meeting, and then, in the meeting convince people that this is the right thing to do this is the data that supports it and let’s have a plan, et cetera, et cetera, until you go to the corrective action.

So you have a chain from insight to corrective action that takes a lot of time and resources, We don’t have people, we don’t have time and now We’re adding to the problem because we’re adding more information, more data that is important.

So you’re frustrated. You need to look at it. You need to analyze it. You need to take an action. You need to call a meeting, People are telling you, you know what? I don’t want to see that. I don’t want to know. you’re bothering me because you’re telling me stuff that will only frustrate me and I cannot do it.

So we said, okay, with technology, with Gen AI, you can have a little helper who’s smart, who knows exactly in real time what’s your status right now, and can do all those annoying tasks that take so much time for you. It can do the entire digest and ingest of the analytics, tell you what is the bottom line, tell you what you need to do, write the email for you, send the email write the presentation, send the presentation, follow the project, write the communication email, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

So there is, a real need for relief, relief in terms of people. The people needs a lot of minions all around them, smart minions that will just do the job,

Um,

Antoine Walter: and it’s alarming because I had that conversation with amanda sikora from vapar she was explaining how utilities would not jump boat because they don’t want the information. if they start having the information, they will need to act on it and they can’t. they’d rather, you know, what I don’t know can’t harm me.

So ignorance is bliss. Let’s not go into that. , that’s why it’s alarming that there is this tendency that we don’t want to look at information just because we don’t have the means to act on the information. to that extent, you created the augmented. Operator or the augmented executive or the augmented PR person or whatever, because you’re, aiming at solving the problem by saying we don’t have more people, we don’t have more resources, so how do we do more with less?

Well, we use tools. I’m with you on that. Now, when I started the podcast, one of the big questions I was asking around was, are we aiming towards. the automated network, the automated plants, the automated stuff like that. And so my vision at the time was we would not have something to augment us. We would have something to do all the boring stuff we don’t want to do.

And then the human becomes just the one to check what’s happening. you would not be the one acting and moving a valve. The system would act and move a valve and then tell you it has done it. It looks like we’re taking a different direction, which is to say.

We have to make it easier for the operator to take the decision, but still he’s in charge of the decision. So does that mean that you’re using all the intelligence you’re gathering with Kando to augment the operator, but you will always leave the operator in charge and never act instead of him?

Ori Reshef: there are points where you need human intelligence, I completely adhere to your vision. I think robots can go anywhere and automate the system and open valves and close valves, et cetera. But there is, a human factor that should be in the loop the human intelligence should be.

augmented. more and more automation should happen to make sure human operators are doing what they do best, with the mind blowing capabilities of GPT and all the LLM models. There are two things we can do. one is being creative and solving problems that are, more complex and don’t have a textbook solution and empathy.

Understand what the effect of a problem has on other human beings and take decisions according to these parameters. I don’t see LLMs going there anywhere soon lucky for us, we still have some advantage, but this can take us so far. one person can do much more and leverage their.

Human capabilities. much, much more, of the examples, when we started to work , with one of our customers, we did an investigation with Streamy, it gave us all the top polluters and showed some graphs at the end, I said, okay, Streamy, please prepare a presentation for the next meeting.

Streamy said, well, sure. Fun. Here’s your presentation. the room went wild. Why? Because they are engineers. specializing in numbers and understanding complex hydraulic problems and waste water problems. They hate writing presentations. And they told me, you know, at the end of the day, this small thing is hours and hours of suffering for me.

I hate it. I hate preparing the presentation. I hate presenting it. and I hate writing the email that surrounds this, you solved my problem. I said, Oh, this is the important thing. assembling the data, putting all the charts together, putting the bullets and we solve the problem.

Antoine Walter: Explain how you roll out. you said you have two customers, using the alpha right now. some questions on that. First, do you adapt the context to each customer? , let’s say One is in the US, the other is in Israel, and on one end it’s the US EPA, on the other oneit’s the Israeli National Water Law.

So you would not have the same legal context. I would imagine that it would eventually make sense to have for one, the US, and for the other, the Israeli regulation inside, and to not Cross the two. in order to not confuse people, so , that’s one thing second, you mentioned you picked people which are more innovation prone or with an open mind or creative people, which might be able to leverage that.

STREAMi Launch and Customer Reactions

Antoine Walter: What was the reaction when you brought Streamy and then I have more questions, but let’s start with those two ones,

Ori Reshef: first one, you’re completely right. we have two customers. the three that are doing two launch in the US and one is launching next week in Israel. context is different. when you look at the U S as a target market for a company like ourselves, it is very, very different.

water scarcity is different from one state to another. The water laws are different from the way people look, the consciousness. And so we must have different, contexts. per client, especially in the US where you have the permits and it’s per industry per watershed capacity per the state of mind of the legislature later in the specific state or county.

Antoine Walter: So . That’s an advantage. That we can give context the context is per state and sometimes per county and sometimes per region. So the context is specific to each one. The API, would it connect? only to the data of one customer, or would it be like a worldwide anonymized stuff, which you can then leverage?

Data Security and Segregation

Ori Reshef: And we’re very, very, very, very careful with that. Data is completely segregated. at this point, we’re not even dreaming of doing aggregated. It’s in the vision, but the first thing is data security, for our customers. So data is segregated. APIs are completely tokenized andsecuritized andencrypted

one customer can see only their data in their context, which helps us also to be better. Actually, one of the nice things is that, when you start the thread with, chat GPT, it holds the memory of the questions, and the more context it has, the smarter it gets and more surprising insight you’ll

Antoine Walter: how did they react to Streamy?

Ori Reshef: The reaction was, wow. Because you can talk to Streamy like your smart friend and they really started talking. I think the major concern is always the same concern. It’s the right concern. This is our largest battle.

Challenges and Concerns with STREAMi

Ori Reshef: And this is something that we should talk about and how we deal with that, which is data quality.

Everything at the end of the day is about how good is your data. And how clean it is, how reliable it is, how accessible it is, how it is organized. This is the basic of everything. we can do no magic on top of it, but if your data is garbage, it’s garbage in garbage out And that was always the concern because it kind of augments the concern

Cause you’re talking to a friend and he’s very convincing and he’s very smart. Telling you nonsense and the risk is to follow nonsense. So their major concern, once they said, okay, this is cool, this is working. But is it real? Is it really real? this is what we’re doing.

We’re making sure that every answer is real, we have, developers. We have code writers, that are software engineers, and we have, a team of researchers, divided into experts in wastewater and data scientists. something that is always on and will always continue to invest resources is the quality of the data that we output and the quality of our analytics, the machine learning models that are producing the, events.

Always, a roadmap. there are always, two data scientists that are on that. They don’t see anything else. They don’t know anything else. They know on how good is our data and make sure it’s always better. That’s the concerns of our customers also.

Marketing Strategies and Product Ideas

Antoine Walter: What’s a major perk of Streamy could also have a downside because if it’s highly customized and really tailored for everyone’s use. That means before every deployment, you need to adapt Streamy to make it tailored to something. I was thinking, . you know, WordWave is a company who launched a mini product called Twitter Roast. I’m not, So much of a Twitter guy. So it doesn’t speak to me, but I saw all the Twitter guys starting to say, look, I just plugged that mini product on my Twitter. It looks at all my tweets and then it roasts my Twitter , and it’s super accurate.

And it’s a product they don’t sell. It’s a product that really it’s offered for free. And it has this kind of viral capacity because you want to test it because it’s cool, and you want to share the results. everybody gets to hear about. The word wave company, because there’s , this mini product.

And I was just looking up, what are the other companies doing that? And you, you have copy AI is doing a cold image generator. Wix has a QR code generator. Ahrefs has an SEO keyword generator. And so far and so on. The one which I’m using is co schedule has an headline analyzer. Before I put a title to my podcast, I go to the headline analyzer from Kosky.

I wouldn’t even know that Kosky exists if not for that. And so I was just thinking, you know, is there any chance for you? Because one of your hats is that you’re also in charge of marketing and product marketing. Would it make sense for you to do, a streamy light, which doesn’t connect to the API?

Because that’s the kind of, analytical layer, which you don’t want to leak out because of safety concerns makes a ton of sense, but has all these legal context expert insights you’ve collected and hence , is a cool tool that’s, you know, stupid people like me will like to record themselves chatting with that Streamy-Lite for three minutes and then share it around LinkedIn.

And so you create. Virality and you raise awareness of Kando, hence you use it as a Trojan horse. Does that make any sense or it’s really not what you’ve intended it to be.

Future Vision and Product Development

Ori Reshef: it’s a bit scary. It’s as if you were here today in my office, listening to our talks, because this is exactly what we’re thinking. 200 percent agree, and the idea ofa product led growth approach, PLG approach, with that is amazing. As you said, it’s always a tricky part, PLG, when you do it a couple of times, how do you create the connection between the free version and the paid version, but I’m putting that aside.

It is viral. What we’re looking for is exactly what you said. We’re looking do a kind of autonomous Streamy that adds some kind of value. We have a couple of ideas to embed it, if you’re the mayor of a city, you can embed it in your website and people can chat about their risks as well.

and for example, for, for the entire us we have a map for the UK and Ireland. We have a map, Europe, some of it we have a map. So this is something that we are thinking of completely in the marketing,side. and I invite everybody to Weftec to see , what will cook up until then.

hopefully you’ll be there and we can chat, in our booth over a good, coffee or beer.

Antoine Walter: So WEFTEC is the place where Streamylite comes to life and then you create virality around it. And that’s a clever marketing move. be the contrarian now for a second, because all of that is super cool and I’m pumped up. I want to also take the other side, which is, get your, your,explanation as to how you can augment.

and expand the capabilities of the water professionals, the engineers, the executives and everything on the other end of that same story, everybody is screaming for their attention. Like now your sewer could talk to you, but also your pump could talk to you, but also your, SCADA could talk to you, but also your, GIS could talk to you and so far and so on.

Everybody wants to be like your best augmented friend. So you’re fighting for their attention You know, I’m trying to connect that to your previous employer. And

Ori Reshef: Hmm.

Antoine Walter: the ERP world, there’s SAP, there’s Oracle, and then there are some small people, but it’s like everything is in the one, one roof, whereas in the water world, I could just look at the alumni of my podcast find 20 or 30 different people who want to be kind of the water OS and , to be , that full thing. Long question, which leads to a very simple one at the end. Do you intend to build like the wastewater slash sewer OS, which covers everything or in the long run, will you be A puzzle piece, which vertically integrates into whoever becomes that OS, you are just a link in the chain.

Ori Reshef: you’re right to mention my previous employer at SAPI I was the os. SAP is an amazing company. almost all the Fortune 500 companies in the world use SAP and you can be the OS of the entire enterprise. there I learned how difficult and how much responsibility and how big of a company you need to be to be the os.

For us to think about that at this point in our lives is not smart. we need to be the best in the world in wastewater quality analysis, finding the source. And, reducing the impact on, on the environment, I think it’s closer to a piece in the puzzle that can easily go anywhere you want.

I think the secret and you’re very right. is the explosion of data. When you talk with, with water, people say, not that I don’t have too much data. As you said, I don’t want to see it anymore. You’re telling me too much. And you’re kind of painting the image, which is very similar to that.

And I think you’re right. Everybody would want to talk to you to have your chat assistant, to have your augmented, whatever. I think the secret will be. To be very, tailored to solve a problem for a person in the most complete way, but one, not the entire thing and be where they’re used to work. meaning that if I have my phone with me all the time and I’m used to working with my phone, why should I ask you to open a laptop in the field?

if you’re already used to it. this is part where AI should be seamless and Gen AI should be seamless. I want to see it in my Outlook. I don’t want to have another application that is analyzing my emails and writing and suggesting and blah, blah. I want it to be to be done in Outlook, or in WhatsApp.

I want a chat bot assistant in WhatsApp analyzing everything. Tell me, do you want to answer this? Click here. I don’t want another app. So someone will come along, maybe one day and unify the, water world. there are a lot of startups that say we will be the water OS.

was this, small company called SAP to be the OS. Oh my God, you need infrastructure data infrastructure. You need, a lot of resources. It’s a huge headache. Just think about your data model. Is it covering everything? You know, all your sources, there are so many engineering questions that are so hard.

I think it should arrive, but it should be done the monsters of the market, and they should pick and choose experts the domain, we want to shine. in our domain. we get this question actually quite a lot saying, given that you’re so data oriented and you know your stuff in data and you have your infrastructure, why can’t I pour everything that I have to yours, server?

You do your magic and spit out something . That’s a much, much larger company with a lot of more investment and lot of lead time until you can do something as complex as that. So we’ll stay humble and pointed.

Investment and Profitability Goals

Antoine Walter: That’s a perfect transition because when you mentioned big companies and how big of a company, I was just looking up, the investment path of Kando and Kando since Ari was on that microphone, raised an 8 million Series B in 2021, which is the last raise you did, which in That world means whether you’re incredibly profitable and you don’t need to raise, good on you, congrats, or you’re bootstrapped and you have a lot of people working with great passion to develop it and you don’t need to burn money, or you’re about to raise.

So which one is it?

Ori Reshef: So we have an open round that we almost. closed our existing investors really believe in us and , they increased , their investment. we’re not profitable yet, but this is our aim. very shortly. so we didn’t do a big raise. We did, a smaller raise that will enable us to, go and explode in the market with what we have.

Antoine Walter: in general, I think profitability should be the North star of everyone. that’s the hardcore truth, right? , let’s go back 50 years ago, there was no question, growth or, profitability. You need to be profitable in order to be a business. think we’re going back to this very sane logic So in the context of a Streamy, is Streamy meant to be profitable or is it not? One step in the process and then the overall Kando experience is meant to be profitable.

Ori Reshef: The overall Kando experience is meant to be profitable. Streamy, is a part of Kando, doing all the things , to make our users life easier, quicker and really gain , the riches , of Kando, but it’s,, a part , of what we do and we clear upstream. We make sure your upstream is clear.

now we want to do it in your context and augment, our users. But it’s the Kando experience , vision in terms of generative AI is again build specialized solution for specific roles in the utility, learn them, know them very well, learn, understand what they need.

And give them this solution and with this we can augment our user base and the number and types of people that are using, Kando and then again, going back to our mission, quality is our mission. And since we think quality is the business of everyone, everybody should use their own Streamy.

from their perspective. If the perspective is public trust, if the public does not trust you, you have a problem as a utility, you have a problem as the mayor. But if you have a stream that is always there saying, Oh, look, improved by two quality points, the wastewater quality, and this is the impact of it.

I know it. I stream in. There you go. There’s your, LinkedIn posts or Facebook posts or your press release. Just click here. if the CEO sees their CSAT score, NPS score goes up. Then they said, okay, I have a use for this small gadget that I can do put there.

Antoine Walter: So Streamy is your UI . But the breadwinner is ClearWebStream, which is actively bringing all that data, collecting it, putting it together in an API form, and then Streamy. Enables you to tap into the API

Ori Reshef: it’s so important what you just said, because people tend to mix everything up and say, LLM is magic. And there is the hard statistical mathematical work and hard hardware work. that needs to be done. And this is why we do not give up. On the contrary, double down on the machine learning model, on the anomaly detection model, on the quality of our hardware, on the accuracy of the hardware.

Streamy is an amazing addition. It adds a layer of intelligence and analytics, and you can ask for any graph that you want, which is amazing. But. It’s a conversational UI, very smart but it sits on the shoulders of giants. giant is what we do our core business and our core business is to know waste water quality and to improve it.

if you don’t have that, then okay, you can go and to chat GPT lambda, and that’s the question and get the answer. And that would be fun, but it wouldn’t get the job that

Antoine Walter: and you’re not a super big company, but you’re still orders of magnitude larger than me. So you can support the API cost and it’s okay for you to keep building it. I get it.

Ori Reshef: I admire the attempt because it goes up really quickly.

Antoine Walter: Yeah. Yeah. I can talk to you much. it was expensive, but yeah. At least I learned something. you mentioned you’re in the closing of your financing rounds for people listening to us, are you. full done and just closing, or are you still taking calls?

Ori Reshef: we always like to talk to, investors that are really interested in that.We’re looking for partners. We’re almost done. So, not much room left, but if you’re interested, contact us. we’re always happy to talk. We learn from every interaction.

So always happy to talk

Antoine Walter: And to close that deep dive, do you have a KPI for Streamy to say by the mid of 2025, you’ll have rolled out to 20 customers What’s a realistic target for you?

Ori Reshef: the roadmap, we did it very quickly and I have to mention the super amazing team. we’re a 50 person, company. we have super talented, and motivated people. We have, Nadav Karpenkov, who’s our VP R& D, who led this. Or Nisa, our VP product did an amazing job.

The entire R& D team, Dikla Raz from the, our head of research. we invest in those talents and they surprised me by the speed and quality of work we were able in a very short time to go on production and now working with the customers. So we became more ambitious we want Streamy to be the way that our customers interact with Kando, hopefully , by January 2025, it will be, there will always be the dashboard and you can always fall back to what, you know, But , that’s our aim.

another aim we have is to produce two more Streamys. One, as we mentioned, the more, open Streamy , closed environment that everybody can play around with and have fun. , and getting more and more we have, in our roadmap and operational stream for more operational people that will help you optimize around on the network and, and, and manage it, the PR system,

we have lots of dreams and we’re executing, so it’s fun.

Antoine Walter: So January, 2025, you go out of alpha, you’re going to beta or live.

Ori Reshef: Yes.

Antoine Walter: didn’t hear your targets. How many people, how many customers should have it by the end of 2025?

Ori Reshef: At least 20 customers should have it.

Antoine Walter: At least 20. it’s a bit frustrating because I don’t want to take you for one more hour, but we have more topics because I’d like to understand at some point on the line, the focus of Kando on the people, the focus of Kando on the workers, and also the focus of Kando on the people.

PR communication side, because those are two directions, which are pretty unexpected from a water company like yours, but that’s great because it will build the excitation to be around that WEFTEC and to have that talk and the beer and the drink and whatever it is in the meantime, thanks a lot for having been with me on that deep dive and that LLM route, if that’s fine for you, I propose to switch to the rapid fire questions.

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Rapid fire questions:

Antoine Walter: First question, what is the toughest challenge in your opinion for a water tech startup?

Ori Reshef: the fact that they are not working in front of technology companies, the technology is not the main business of. What are utilities and they need to understand to explain the technology in terms of how does it help me in life? And so I urge them to go and understand the problem that they’re solving and not fall in love with the technology, which we often have.

Antoine Walter: What would be your best single piece of advice for the founders and managers of the about 1, 000 early stage water startups?

Ori Reshef: Study the problem. study the market and make sure that if you’re, leaning on data that you have it And if it’s real time that you have a way of acquiring it I saw, unfortunately, startups that developed amazing stuff, but the lead time to the data or the status of the data was, A barrier

Antoine Walter: What’s the drop of knowledge you wish more investors knew about the water sector?

Ori Reshef: water should be looked at and waste water should be looked at as one of our most important resources. It’s like gold and like oil and like gas. You should look at it like that and you should look at it long term. And you should also look at climate change and what does it mean to water scarcity and water availability.

What was your most unexpected partnership and what did it bring you? in can do in a professional life. I think the most unexpected partnership was between the two poles of product house and, customer experts this partnership, this friendship between the two parts really improved our product understanding and, and,and roadmap in ways I cannot imagine.

it’s not. One against the other, it’s really a strong partnership. The product is everybody’s, especially those who sits with the customer. So partner up with them, talk to them.

Antoine Walter: profitability or growth.

Ori Reshef: Profitability,

Antoine Walter: What’s the next profile you’ll hire

Ori Reshef: data engineers,

Antoine Walter: and when you hire are looking for sector experience or startup experience

Ori Reshef: sector experience,

Antoine Walter: opening your markets or doubling down on the current ones

Ori Reshef: double down on current ones.

Antoine Walter: . What’s that tool nobody speaks about, but you couldn’t live without.

Ori Reshef: have to examine one that everybody’s speaking about. I’m addicted to chat, GPT and Gemini. I mean, both. I’m using both for everything in my life. It is embarrassing to say how many domains are now completely there. I pay both, open AI and Gemini, so I’m working a lot with them. and the other tool is an electric pump from my motorcycle.

That’s I cannot live without it.

Antoine Walter: What’s the single piece of insight your ideal customer profile needs to hear right now.

Ori Reshef: What is the public trust? Regarding their work.

Antoine Walter: What are you desperately needing and want to raise an open call for right now?

 People that want to try out and play around with us, come to our booth, come to Weftech, check out Streamy, check out what it ignites in you. We’re looking for people that have an open mind and a passion to explore. So the way to try out Streamy is to come visit you at WEFTEC at your booth.

Ori Reshef: Yes, definitely. And for you, especially, you’ll get, a URL, once we’re building a separate environment that is separate from our customers, you’ll be the first one to use it.

Antoine Walter: it. What can and should I do for you?

Ori Reshef: play around with Streamy and tell us honestly what you think that will be the best thing.

Antoine Walter: I’ll do that. That’s within my reach.

Ori Reshef: Perfect.

Antoine Walter: Thanks a lot, Ori.

Antoine Walter: If people want to connect with you and follow up after that conversation, where shall I redirect them the best?

Ori Reshef: either LinkedIn, you can find my profile or ori.reshef@kando.eco. Email me. I’ll be more than happy to answer.

Antoine Walter: As always, the links to your mail and LinkedIn are in the show notes. if you’re listening or watching have a look. I think we’ll have a good chat in New Orleans. So I’m looking forward to that. Thanks a lot for having been with me and talk to you soon.

Ori Reshef: Thank you again for having me. It was a pleasure. Thanks!

Other Episodes:

FREDsense: Revolutionizing Water Quality Monitoring with Biosensor Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 7 May 2025

Swirltex: Revolutionizing Wastewater Treatment with Bubbly Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 30 April 2025

Blue Foot Membranes: The Next Evolution in Water Filtration

By Antoine Walter | 16 April 2025

Echo River Capital: Pioneering the Future of Water Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 3 April 2025

1001 Fontaines: Engineering Sustainable Water Access Through Social Entrepreneurship

By Antoine Walter | 22 March 2025

Amazon’s Water Footprint: Tech Giant’s Quest for Water Sustainability

By Antoine Walter | 19 March 2025

Turing: The AI Revolution Quenching the Water Industry’s Thirst for Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 26 February 2025

Altillion: Pioneering Digital Intelligence for Water Asset Management

By Antoine Walter | 6 February 2025

Flocean: Pioneering Ocean-Based Water Solutions

By Antoine Walter | 15 January 2025

Botanical Water Technologies: Harvesting Liquid Gold from Plants

By Antoine Walter | 4 December 2024

The post How Kando’s STREAMi Simplifies Complex Water Quality Data for Executives appeared first on (don't) Waste Water.

Intrigued? Let’s dive deeper into her vision.

with Riikka Timonen – VP New Markets & Biomaterials at Kemira

Resources:

Come say hi to Riikka on LinkedIn

Kemira’s website

The IFF’s website

Crustatec’s take at bio-based chitosan

The World’s Bank Water Acceleration Program

is on Linkedin

Antoine Walter on LinkedIn

Full Video:

A Purpose-Driven Transition

At the heart of Kemira’s transformative journey is a purposeful choice: divesting from oil and gas. Despite the inherent financial fluctuations, this pivot was not merely about numbers. “It was clear that from a strategic perspective, divesting was a step we had to take. There was not a good fit with our overall sustainability story,” Timonen explains.

For Kemira, refocusing on renewable materials isn’t just smart business—it’s a moral imperative.

Innovating for Tomorrow: Bio-Based Solutions

So, what does Kemira’s bold strategy entail? An extensive shift towards renewable, bio-based materials. Timonen offers a glimpse into this future: imagine coffee cups without PFAS-laden barriers, made entirely from biobased materials.

These innovations go beyond mere replacements, targeting efficiency and cost-effectiveness in various applications, from water treatment chemicals to packaging.

Molded fiber for burger containers and other biodegradable solutions? That’s on their radar, with a clear mission to make such alternatives not just viable but mainstream.

Redefining Raw Materials: From Niche to Necessity

Traditional pulp and paper industries may have been Kemira’s historical strength, but the company is now pushing the boundaries into new markets with a bio-based focus. Timonen highlights a significant project with IFF designed to propel engineered polysaccharides like alpha-glucans to market.

These aren’t just corporate jargon but rather the intricate foundations of future bio-based innovations. Of course, the road to scalability is fraught with challenges, particularly when existing supply chains aren’t readily equipped to handle bio-based materials at the necessary scale. “We’re taking steps to convert more and more fossils in the supply chain into bio-based materials,” Timonen asserts, underscoring the nuanced task of balancing cost and performance.

Crafting New Markets

Perhaps one of the most formidable challenges Timonen identifies is the creation of markets where they do not yet exist, especially in renewable water treatment. “There is no market for renewable water treatment. Customers are not asking for bio-based polymers; we have had to make the market,” she reveals.

Convincing municipalities and regulators to adopt low-carbon chemicals, even without current incentives, underscores the ambitious scale of Kemira’s goals. Success, Timonen argues, will be measured by new public tenders specifically requesting low-carbon, bio-based chemical options by 2030.

Battling Claims and Defining True Innovation

Kemira’s path is not devoid of scrutiny. Despite notable achievements, some accuse the company of greenwashing. Timonen counters these claims with transparency, pointing to fully audited KPIs available in Kemira’s reports.

This openness is designed to transform skepticism into admiration as the company continues its journey. For Timonen, innovation is about more than just laboratory breakthroughs. It’s about engaging customers and delivering measurable value. “Innovation in action means there’s a customer involved and a true business case behind it,” she emphasizes, advocating for a customer-centric approach in R&D.

The Economics of Sustainability

Kemira’s financial landscape is compelling. The company generates roughly 3.4 billion euros annually, with around 1 billion euros attributed to the water segment.

Timonen aims to carve out a substantial 500 million euros from biopolymers by 2030, driven by robust long-term planning and a structured roadmap. “We constantly develop performance and improve cost efficiency,” she notes, alluding to the nuanced economics that often sidestep traditional economies of scale.

Navigating Culture and Collaboration

Venturing into new markets with start-ups presents unique hurdles. “It’s very exciting but also very challenging… most of our collaboration partners are working on lab scale or pilot scale,” Timonen observes.

Managing these partnerships necessitates a blend of flexibility and strategic foresight. Kemira’s strategy is collaborative; team training and hands-on support during trials ensure a collective effort towards a renewable future.

Advising Emerging Entrepreneurs

Timely advice from Timonen encapsulates the essence of successful innovation. “Really try to put yourself in your customer’s seat, or even your customer’s customer’s seat,” she advises, stressing the importance of customer-centric value propositions.

Additionally, she highlights the need to secure funding not just for prototyping but also for scaling up innovations.

The Road Ahead

Kemira’s journey toward a renewable future in water treatment is as inspiring as it is challenging. Through the leadership and vision of experts like Riikka Timonen, Kemira sets an example of purposeful innovation, tackling obstacles in supply chains, customer engagement, and scalability head-on.

Stay tuned as these pivotal shifts unfold within the water treatment industry and beyond. The future, as Timonen envisions, is one where sustainability and innovation go hand in hand, driving a new era of environmental responsibility.

My Full Conversation with Riikka Timonen (Kemira)

These are computer-generated, so expect some typos

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Antoine Walter: Hi, Riikka. Welcome to the show.

Riikka Timonen: Hello. Thank you.

Antoine Walter: I’m super happy to have a second conversation with Kemira. In this season, I’m trying to start from the key challenge and what I identified as a key driver is that you have a 500 million target for biopolymer by 2030 for Kemira. How? Do you come up with such a target and why do you take this kind of commitment?

Riikka Timonen: Well, first of all, we’re not starting from zero, which is a good thing. So we have been tracking this kind of revenue from renewable materials for a couple of years now. And last year we were about 230 million euro. There is still a long way to go, but we already have. Kind of a pretty, pretty good [00:07:00] starting point for us.

It’s of course, very much about, uh, differentiation from the competition. You understand Gemera is not a huge chemistry company. We’re a pretty specialized from customer segment, from technology product portfolio perspective. So this is a clearly one. possible avenue for us to differentiate as well. We have a chance to do it.

So we have already so many biobased materials in our portfolio so that it is possible now to build on that and kind of convert more and more fossils in the supply chain into biobased materials.

Antoine Walter: You say not so big chemical company. You do 3. 6 billion of revenue?

Riikka Timonen: 3. 4 last year. 3. 4? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Antoine Walter: On track to make 3.

6 this year, let’s say it that way. How much of that goes into water?

Riikka Timonen: About one.

Antoine Walter: So one billion, not so small company, I would say,

Riikka Timonen: for a water company. Yeah.

Antoine Walter: When you have a target to go to 500 million, does that mean that the next step is then to go [00:08:00] fully bio based, at some point in the future, or is it not realistic?

Riikka Timonen: Depends a little bit on the product portfolio, the product chemistry. So we are applying the so called biomass balanced approach, where the end molecule is exactly the same as the incumbent fossil based one, but we have replaced the some of the raw materials with the biobased raw materials, but then we have another approach where the product is really biobased.

We start from example starch or, or then we have the polysaccharide platform that we also build on. So there are several, um, uh, different approaches. different approaches into the biobased, but when I think about from individual product perspective, reaching 100 percent might be still further away, because then you really need to go down into the chelating agents, for example, or into the defoamer or emulsifiers.

I am thinking that 90 percent we can already reach today, but the [00:09:00] last 10 percent or the last 10% percentages will be more difficult going forward.

Antoine Walter: So the 90 percent which are possible to reach, that means what needs to be aligned now is the economics or is it a different roadblocker?

Riikka Timonen: It’s also the availability of bio based raw materials.

We have some raw materials that are very well available, but some raw materials where we struggle more. So that’s one roadblock. The other roadblock is the performance. When, especially when we go into the, um, not the biomass balance approach, but the really a different starting point, we start from a different raw material base.

So then the performance is another question. We are constantly developing the performance and improving the performance. But in some cases we’re not there yet. Or then in some cases it is, as you say, it’s the cost issue. So it is a fact that the biobased raw materials today, they cost more and we cannot.

absorb all that cost into our own PML. So we, we try to kind of put some of that downstream, the value chain. So that’s [00:10:00] the, uh, a third hurdle. It’s also interesting because in the traditional raw material space, it’s very common that the economies of scale play a role, but the bio based raw materials don’t behave like that.

Antoine Walter: So you mean that the economics don’t necessarily align today at today’s prices for some of them, but even though you would be multiplying by 10 or 20 the volumes, you wouldn’t have the scale effect you expect from oil and gas, and so there will have to be cost adaptations in the market to cope with that sustainability.

Riikka Timonen: Yes, I would say so. Yeah.

Antoine Walter: That’s very clear on the Economic sides, just coming back on the, I’ll take the value chain last because that’s super interesting, but let’s start with the performance. You have two different approaches to that, if I’m right, what you just explained, which is one to one replacements, in which case you don’t have to revalidate the product is already accepted.

It’s just a different way to achieve. The final end product. And the second is to have a new product who does roughly the same, but not exactly the same. In which cases do you go for which? You always try to go for the one to one replacement. And if it’s really not [00:11:00] possible, then you would go for the other alternative.

Or is it case by case that you study and you say, Oh, here we could go for that instead of the other?

Riikka Timonen: I think that our ultimate. Goal is, is really in this new innovative platforms, but also from the customer perspective, if you think about an application like, like sludge dewatering. So if we go for the one on one replacement, the sludge will still contain poloacrylamides.

But if we come up with a completely biobased product, so then also the end of life changes for, for the sludge, for example, and also from customer perspective, now. With the biomass balance approach, they can be part of substituting or replacing fossils in the, in the value chain, but still the end molecule is the same.

They will get benefit in their carbon footprint calculations, but the end of life of, of the sludge is exactly as it is today. So ultimately we strive for the fully biobased materials, but it depends on a, on a customer. What, what is that kind of a, what’s [00:12:00] more. Value creating from the customer in, in, in each individual case.

For some customers, the carbon footprint is the main KPI that they go for. For the other customers, it might be that the, you know, they digest the large sludge in the biogas. Do you get some benefits there if the kind of a, a dewatering chemistry is different or some other end of life benefits?

Antoine Walter: I have a value chain question.

If I try to take a cooking analogy. You are at camera, you are cooks, you get raw ingredients. You cook them and you sell cakes.

Riikka Timonen: Okay.

Antoine Walter: But you’re dependent on the guys producing the raw ingredients, the butter, the milk, in my analogy, which in your case would be the, the, the source components, when you say, I want to go to bio based, that means your value chain has to go to bio based so that you can cook bio based products.

Cakes.

Riikka Timonen: Sure.

Antoine Walter: How do you nudge them into going to buyer based?

Riikka Timonen: Again, unfortunately, it depends. But for some raw materials, they are [00:13:00] very, uh, well available. So we are actually a niche, uh, buyer for, uh, for some of the really basic backbone, backbone chemistries. But then when we go into this more innovative, uh, like for example, this engineered polysaccharides, the alpha glucans for example, so then they are not that easily available.

And sometimes we also need to participate. Like for example, we have now announced with IFF that we will invest in a go to market unit for producing this, this materials.

Antoine Walter: So you go upstream and you extend to the value chain. Yes. Okay. I’ll tell you where my question comes from so that you have a bit of context.

I had the pleasure to be the moderator in the World Bank’s Accelerator program for water companies, where they had 40 startups presenting their concept and then 20 got selected to go to the next round and one of those 20 who got selected is a startup from Guatemala called Crustatec and they noticed that there is a huge shrimp waste that You’re taking the shrimps, the part which is [00:14:00] eaten gets into the food chain, but all the rest of the shrimp just gets dumped, and that’s a major environmental problem.

And what they discovered is that, you’re supposed to know that, but I’m a muggle, I didn’t know it, so you probably know it. But if you take the shrimp and you crush it, it makes a good polymer. which you can then use in water treatment. So that’s what Crustatec is doing. It’s Kitosan.

Riikka Timonen: So you see, yeah,

Antoine Walter: I think the lady from Crustatec looked at me exactly the same.

Everybody knows that. So yeah, I’m sorry. I didn’t know. Is it the kind of stuff you’re looking into?

Riikka Timonen: We have been looking into Kitosans as well. Yes. But it’s always the, the balance, the, the cost availability performance balance. So

Antoine Walter: that’s the kind of value chain you would have to build because nowadays it’s just a waste.

Nobody takes the shrimps and crushes them. But if now you say that’s what we should do, then that means the full cycle is going to be built upstream. Absolutely. What I’m curious is your role because you’re looking into the new business and your new dimensions where camera could enter into. What guides you and tells you that’s the direction we could explore?

Riikka Timonen: Camera strategy is is very clear. We have three [00:15:00] strategic pillars. One is grow in water. Second is develop a, um, renewable solutions portfolio. And the third one is grow digital services. So I’m mainly working with the, with the second pillar, which is the grow renewable solutions portfolio. So my Guiding North Star is the word renewable.

We really want to kind of look at our supply chain and systematically in a structured way, gradually over time, replace more and more offering to be based on renewable materials. So, for example, in the area of water treatment, that is what we’re doing. Now, then we have another dimension, which is the new markets.

And there, I think that the red thread or the North star is the cellulose fiber. So Kemera has been, uh, dealing with cellulosic fibers for 100 years or, or even more. So serving our customers in the pulp and paper industry. So we know everything about cellulosic [00:16:00] chemistry. Now there is a big trend for replacing plastics in many of our customer segments.

So that’s another kind of a path that we follow. What all you can do with bio based fiber, cellulosic fiber, be it the textiles, be it the packaging materials, molded fiber, for example. So those would be the two levers that, that we have.

Antoine Walter: We were sitting in a round table together just minutes ago, and you gave an example on packaging.

Is that the type of work which you’re leading as Chemera?

Riikka Timonen: Absolutely. So

Antoine Walter: the example was. This, we don’t have one now, but there’s this cups like carton cups, which you see paper cups for, for coffee today, they have an inner cover, which is made of plastics made of PFAS because you want it to be paper, but you still want it to hold your hot coffee.

And so you would be looking into alternative materials to still hold those capacities that you don’t spill all your coffee on you, but without using paper.

Riikka Timonen: Absolutely. That’s it. That’s a huge area where we also work on. [00:17:00] Yes, we are a huge bio based, we call it a bio based barrier or renewable barrier program, but that’s one of the main development areas that we work on.

Antoine Walter: What’s your freedom for creativity in your role? Do you have like, there are still some taboos or there’s still some limits because we are. a historical company with some boundaries or can you really destroy everything as long as it works?

Riikka Timonen: Um, my freedom to, I, I consider that my freedom to operate is really big.

So I see it is that it’s about presenting the business case. I’m free to present any sort of a business case. Sometimes, you know, it’s been regarded as positive and sometimes I get an explanation so that this is not flying maybe this time or for this and these reasons, but I don’t feel that I’m being held back about not presenting the ideas.

But then I also do accept that not all of them, we cannot execute on everything.

Antoine Walter: So what would be the decision process? You come with a new possible material, new possible source, or you say, we have to internalize [00:18:00] that as part of the vertical. How long does it take to go through the stages? And would you maybe have an example of something that you Took through all the steps and which is now market ready

Riikka Timonen: at the moment.

There are some initiatives, but they are not there yet. So I’m I don’t not willing to discuss them, but I think that we are approaching a decision point and it’s been taken now 1. 5 years from the idea to a decision,

Antoine Walter: which is pretty fast. It is

Riikka Timonen: pretty fast, but it has required a lot of. Uh, data collection, market studies, uh, technology development.

So it’s been a pretty, um, resource intensive exercise. Let’s put it like that. I’m working in a special unit, the growth accelerator unit. So maybe I have also a little bit more freedom to operate compared to maybe someone who is working in the base business.

Antoine Walter: But just stats is already interesting. You biobased material as a defensive move.

Like, oil and gas is gonna be faded out, fossil fuel is gonna be faded out. We have, if you want to survive, to move to that area. But the [00:19:00] fact that You take that as a growth acceleration path means that there is added value for the value chain to go that direction. How does the market react?

Riikka Timonen: I think the overall response has been extremely, uh, extremely positive, even a bit surprisingly positive.

Um, But of course, if you think about Gemira’s customers, we’re dealing with pulp and paper customers and then with water treatment customers. The pulp and paper customers are all about biobased material themselves. It’s a cellulosic fiber, so for them it’s a super beneficial that if they develop now a, um, packaging material that is supposed to be home compostable, fully biobased and biodegradable.

They need us to come up with, uh, with, with the biobased barrier technology to, to achieve their end goal. Then in the water treatment side, we tend to deal a lot with the municipalities. I had my questions because They are not very willing to absorb extra costs, but still we have been able to increase our sales [00:20:00] within the last year pretty successfully because there has been more of this kind of a voluntary wish to be part of solving the problem.

replacing the plastics in the value chain, reducing the carbon footprint of water treatment. So even though there is no kind of a business, a direct business incentive there, but still there seems to be some sort of an incentive to go for the bio based materials. It’s been actually surprisingly a positive

Antoine Walter: response.

Probably a tricky question, so I apologize for that. When I published the interview with Tuya last year, I got, let’s say, an 80 20 satisfaction rate. roughly. 80 percent of the people say, Hey, nice, that’s camera is going that direction. And the other 20 percent said, Yeah, that’s

Riikka Timonen: greenwashing.

Antoine Walter: How do you react to that?

Riikka Timonen: First of all, we have the KPI, which is completely transparent, and also through truly validated. So it gives a pretty good backbone to be able to demonstrate in numbers so that we’re [00:21:00] really really going to that direction. And if you think that the ultimate half a billion, it’s still a pretty hefty share of the 3.

5 million or whatever we will be at that point, but, or compared to today’s number. So it’s, it’s not like a insignificant number. Then on the other hand, if we think about from the product level, so for the biomass balance approach, we rely on this ISS certification, and it’s a pretty. Kind of a strict certification body and a program.

So we are really certifying that every kilo of biomass balance product we sell, we have, uh, used, uh, respective amount of biobased raw materials to, to produce the products. So those would be my, my two counter arguments for the greenwashing claims.

Antoine Walter: And those indicators are to be found in your yearly reports.

So if people want to Yes. So yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. You mentioned. Three kind of drivers, renewable, which is your number one. And then the two others are growing water [00:22:00] and digital. Would you work on those two as well? No,

Riikka Timonen: those are not in my responsibility area. Those are more in the, in the base business responsibility area.

So

Antoine Walter: the base business is trying to make it. Digital and growing the water and you’re then looking at future proof the company by going into the renewable. You are also in charge of new markets. What are new markets for an established company like Chimera?

Riikka Timonen: Here we kind of, uh, follow the, uh, the cellulosic fiber.

We have, um, couple of, for example, molded fiber market is a, is a very interesting one. Are you familiar with the.

Antoine Walter: Not so much.

Riikka Timonen: We are, for example, when you today go to buy your hamburger, it comes in a clam shell. And earlier it was always done from polystyrene foam. Now we want to replace that with fiber based packaging.

It can be carton board based, but more and more it’s molded fiber based. So you take the fiber mass and you mold the form that you want to. So that’s an area where we work on so we can utilize. Quite a lot of our, um, existing portfolio, but we also need to [00:23:00] come up with new offering, especially in the oil and grease barrier, water vapor barrier, uh, domain where we need to develop new offering.

Another big trend is the textile. industry. All these fast fashion trends and the consumption of textile fibers increasing through the roof. And the main sources for fibers today are either cotton or then synthetics. And from cotton, we know that it cannot grow anymore. Farming of cotton requires a lot of land and, and water and consumes a lot of pesticides.

So it seems that the kind of a cotton production has achieved is, is, is. It’s big. Yeah, if nothing is done, so then it will be the plastic fibers or the synthetic fibers that kind of fill the gap to, to the increasing demand. So more and more demand is now, uh, going towards cellulosic textile fibers. And here we talk about, uh, viscose.

I don’t know if you knew, but

Antoine Walter: viscose. Yeah, [00:24:00] a little bit.

Riikka Timonen: Liocel as well. And there are a lot of startups. Textile recycling is also lifting its head now. I just received a message that Renewcell has now been kind of, uh, they’re rescued as a new owner. And they have a lot of chemistry needs there, but it’s still the same cellulosic fiber that we’ve been dealing with for ages.

So that’s another area where we work now very closely.

Antoine Walter: How do you handle that culturally? Because if it’s a lot of startups, you’re used to work with the pulp and paper industry, right? Absolutely. with the water industry, which are pretty established. And now you have to work with the cool kids. Yes. How does that change?

Riikka Timonen: That is actually, it’s very exciting, but it’s also very challenging. For example, from forecasting perspective, most of our, um, collaboration partners are working on a lab scale, pilot scale. And the next step is to really invest in a commercial scale production. Requires a lot of capex. Funding, and it’s not easy, especially in Europe in the [00:25:00] past few years.

So it requires that you need to understand their process, their competitiveness, their ultimate product cost, their technology, but also you need to have a bit of a tolerance to kind of a changing plans. That’s the fact.

Antoine Walter: Does that mean that you are. Developing some of your formulas for those players and you need to decide if it’s worth it.

Riikka Timonen: Yes, absolutely. But so far we, luckily, we see that, um, the things we’ve developed, they are applicable to, to many different end uses. So in that sense, but we are very careful for, for going into completely tailor making because that might backfire.

Antoine Walter: This morning you presented your Ikigai and you started your Ikigai By mentioning how your company divested from oil and gas, what drives this kind of moves?

Economically speaking, it’s maybe not the best thing to do. Who sets the bar as to where purpose trumps the economics?

Riikka Timonen: It’s a great question. I’ve been asking that for my whole career life, but this time, I think that the purpose won. Oil and gas, [00:26:00] Forgemir has always been a very cyclical business, but in this particular time, they were in the up cycle.

So indeed, there’s been some discussion in, in, in the external media about how economically or financially wise this decision or move was. at this point of time, but it was clear that, uh, from strategic perspective, that was a step we had to take. Also, there was not a good fit with our overall story and especially the sustainability story.

To me, that was a purpose driven decision more than anything else.

Antoine Walter: Which I would believe is the number one perk because you say to me, you presented it as part of your Ikigai. A company is the sum of the people working for the company. And you probably belong a bit more to a company who does this kind of purpose move, if that’s close to your heart, nothing against Philip Morris, but I would not go work for Philip Morris.

Riikka Timonen: No, that’s exactly the same for me. I need to feel really proud of, of the company that I work for. We have been building this growth accelerator team. So I feel that what I’ve [00:27:00] done for the past year is recruitment. So I’m becoming a headhunter soon. But really every time I ask. What do you know of the company?

And why do, why did you apply? And almost in 99 percent of the cases, the answer is that I like what Gemera does. I like the company’s purpose and I like the sustainability story. It’s really kind of an, from employer brand perspective, seems to be a, a, an important factor as well.

Antoine Walter: You’ve been hiring for the past year.

Are you still hiring?

Riikka Timonen: Yes, I am.

Antoine Walter: So if anyone wants to apply and feels a good connection to the sense of purpose, you will come to that at the end, but you have the links to contact in the show notes. Coming back to you personally and the impact that you’re building. We spoke about Chimera’s targets of the half a billion biobased.

We spoke how you’re working on the renewables. 2030 is pretty far in the future. What? are the milestones which you’re putting in between? What needs to happen by 2025? And beyond the half a billion, what is your [00:28:00] personal measure for impact that you say, looking back in 2030, Oh, I did great.

Riikka Timonen: First of all, we have, of course, our, like every business, we have a long range planning.

And we actually, we follow up on a monthly basis, we have a monthly kind of revenue target for the renewables portfolio and a roadmap towards the 2020. So it’s a pretty, pretty robust system. There are also some corrective actions if we see that, for example, we’re lagging behind. But of course, pricing, um, is also a, a big lever in this target.

So we need to not just look at the revenue euros, but also the, how are the volumes. developing, but there is a robust system there. Then we are of course, um, looking from the product supply perspective. I mentioned this example of this go to market unit for the Alpha Glucon platform that we have now announced together with IFF.

There are other projects cooking there as well to make sure that we have enough from the supplies. side to reach the set target.

Antoine Walter: So that [00:29:00] means that beyond that first platform, which we announced for the bioenzyme, we will have more of the same.

Riikka Timonen: Yes, we would have more of the same. Yes.

Antoine Walter: So on the long run, you would build a full vertical or you would still have external suppliers?

Riikka Timonen: Depends, depends on the chemistry fully.

Antoine Walter: And for you personally, if you look, when 2030, you look back. What tells you that you’ve succeeded?

Riikka Timonen: To me, if we now first go into the renewable water treatment, there is no market today. There is no market for renewable water treatment. The customers are not asking for bio based polymers, for example.

We have had to make the market. There is no regulation. pushing for the municipalities, for example, to select a less fossil based chemistry. So to me, one indicator would be that I see a request for quotation which specifically says that they want to go for a low carbon containing dewatering chemistry, for example, or, or bio based, uh, chemistries would be favoured in the, in the [00:30:00] tendering process.

And then maybe in the new market side, it’s a bit similar, so that, because this, we are entering, we are no, I mean, there’s nobody in these new markets, nobody knows us. So for me, it would be that we start getting, you know, requests, instead of trying to pioneer our way into the market, we start getting, uh, acknowledged as a, as main

Antoine Walter: Your first one is super interesting.

Does that mean that Someone within camera is in charge of convincing the municipalities, convincing the regulator to say, come on. fossil fuel based chemicals in the 21st century. How can we do that as well? Yes,

Riikka Timonen: we have a team in charge of that, but it’s not enough. I mean, we have a small team of these kind of missionaries, let’s put it like that, but what is really needed is that every single.

Gemira sales representative feels comfortable in selling this new offering. Our role is, of course, external, but it’s very much internal as well. So [00:31:00] really training, supporting our sales representatives to feel comfortable in, in argumenting the value of this new offering. So we go a lot together for the first.

second customer visits. If there’s a trial required, we will go there, do the trial together. But as a separate ivory tower team, it will never work. So we really need to engage the, everybody.

Antoine Walter: It’s the kind of internal go to market routes. If you, if you get the train, the trainer approach, and that’s then your guys out there are convinced that they can preach the right message, then you’ve won.

Yeah. Makes a ton of sense. Rika, I look at the time. I have to be cautious about that. Thanks a lot. Thanks. For what you shared in this deep dive and that’s fine for you. I would propose to switch to the rapid fire questions.

Riikka Timonen: Okay.

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Rapid fire questions:

Antoine Walter: What is your definition of innovation in action?

Riikka Timonen: To me, innovation is, is action is that there is a customer involved and [00:32:00] there is a true business case behind it. Innovation can be a lot of, you can innovate a lot of things, but there needs to be some sort of a true value creation element for the customer for it to turn into, into business.

So that to me is innovation in action.

Antoine Walter: What is the most innovative water solution you’ve seen in the past 12 months?

Riikka Timonen: This is a tough one. It goes probably, and I’m not going to name anyone, but it, it, it, it is either the two areas, either it’s a PFAS. Uh, removal and, and destruction. There are a lot of technologies out there and some of them are, are pretty, pretty exciting.

And, uh, the. Other one is probably, I think that this sounds a bit selfish, but I think that our renewable, uh, water treatment chemistries are pretty cool.

Antoine Walter: It’s fair to tout your own horror. I mean, you have to be convinced that you’re making a difference. If not, why do it? So in one word, what is the biggest challenge facing the water industry today?

Riikka Timonen: It’s a boring answer. [00:33:00] Yeah, I mean the, the, the price, the cost of water is not reflecting its true cost with all the externalities. So that’s the sad truth that is holding back the innovation a lot.

Antoine Walter: Who is the water innovator you admire and why?

Riikka Timonen: This I, I don’t have an answer to, sorry.

Antoine Walter: I can give you one, which I didn’t have before this morning.

We had this beautiful presentation of the sponge cities and, and the word sponge concept. Surely, if you see some content going in that direction in the future, you know that it started here because I’m super interested in, into that right now. So yeah, that,

Riikka Timonen: that would be for you. Yeah.

Antoine Walter: Raising a question, giving the answer.

Yeah. That’s a new style. I’ll What’s one single piece of advice you would give to emerging watch entrepreneurs?

Riikka Timonen: Very many of the entrepreneurs that I meet, they are very, very technology focused. They have a neat technology, very often a university spin off, but then when you start to ask about the value proposal, so that is very often, uh, not so clear.

That would be one, one advice. So that [00:34:00] really try to put yourself in your customer’s seat or even a customer’s customer’s seat. So that how will the value be created and how shall it be distributed? And the other, um, uh, aspect is, is what I also see is this kind of a death valley of, of scaling to the commercial.

And, and that’s really, really sad. I personally feel for, we have great ideas. We have great, great technologies, but most of them are able to collect some level of funding to take it even to the pilot scale, but then scaling up. to a full commercial scale of manufacturing. For example, many don’t make it and that’s, that’s sad.

So somehow securing the thinking big from the beginning, but also securing the funding from the beginning, not just for the pilot phase, but really thinking that How am I going to take this to up to the scale, uh, also from funding perspective?

Antoine Walter: What’s a common misconception about water innovation that you like to debunk?

Riikka Timonen: That there is [00:35:00] no innovation.

Antoine Walter: That’s a good one.

Riikka Timonen: Seriously, you know, uh, that, that’s a very, and even here, you know, I’ve, I’ve heard a lot of comments about, you know, being somehow a conservative or a Stagnant and that but there is a lot of innovation here

Antoine Walter: What is one water taboo that you broke or you believe we should break?

Riikka Timonen: I think that the taboo is the the cost of and price of water Discussion because when then we get into the and many companies are careful about this because then we get into the SGD Discussion water clean water is a human right which I believe it is But still somebody needs to pay the bill for for for making sure that there is enough water enough good quality, uh, water for everybody.

So that’s a big taboo that we should talk about more.

Antoine Walter: I think you’re 200 percent right. And the right is to affordable water. The right is not to water. If we just go by the word and affordable means that you pay for it, that it’s not free. So, but yeah, if I get started on that, we’re still here in one hour.

So [00:36:00] I prevent myself for going down that one. And last question, what can and should I do for you?

Riikka Timonen: You should talk more about replacing fossils in the value chain. This is a big trend in other industrial areas that I work with. Replacing plastics, replacing synthetics. I don’t see this discussion happening in the water world at the moment.

Yes, we talk about PFAS. We talk about from kind of how to remove it from, from, from wastewater or drinking water. We talk about carbon footprint. But we don’t really talk about taking the fossils away because that’s already possible. We are dealing with a natural substance, water, and, and natural impurities like sludge, for example.

Those are organic, biobased materials.

Antoine Walter: You’re very right. And you’re very right about the fact that we don’t. speaking off about it because I had the conversation at microphone a couple of times about the water footprint within the various stages, handprint, footprint, the carbon footprint, and same [00:37:00] scope one, scope two, scope three.

We don’t talk so much about the dependency to fossil fuel in some of the processes. So that’s a very good one. I’ll take the nudge. Rika, it’s been a pleasure to have you.

Riikka Timonen: Likewise.

Antoine Walter: If people want to follow up with you, where should I redirect them the best?

Riikka Timonen: They can reach out directly by email or LinkedIn, for example.

And, and Kemira also has a pretty, uh, good, um, web page where there is an easy to reach out as well. Yeah. So

Antoine Walter: as always, the links are in the description, you’ll find. The LinkedIn, the email, that’s up to you, you said it, you’re gonna get the spams. No, no, that’s fine, that’s fine. And the website, I think I made the remark last year, you’re probably the closest to an Apple website I’ve seen in that sector, just because it’s super, super, I mean, anybody has an opinion on that, but I found it interesting to see that approach to being like really, we have three categories and then it goes into very limited amounts of products to be very clear and precise when some go in other directions.

Yeah, yeah. My two cents. Again, thanks a lot, and talk to you soon.

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with Laura Gallindo – Global Director Strategic Marketing & Communications at Grundfos

with Phillip Tomlinson – Digital Solutions Leader at Grundfos

Resources:

Say hi to Laura on LinkedIn

Connect with Phil

Check Grundfos’ website

Grundfos acquires Metasphere

My conversation with Patrick Decker (another pump company turned water tech mogul)

is on Linkedin

Antoine Walter on LinkedIn

Full Video:

A Mission Beyond Pumps

Grundfos’ journey from a pump company to a holistic water solutions leader starts with a clear mission that goes beyond just machinery. Laura Gallindo, Global Director of Strategic Marketing and Communications, explicitly states, “The core and the heart of Grundfos is to reach 300 million people. It’s a huge ambition by 2030.”

This bold vision is not merely an aspiration but a driving force fueling every decision and innovation within the company. Grundfos is committed to empowering communities worldwide, ensuring reliable water access while tackling climate challenges head-on.

In today’s conversation, Laura emphasized, “We are the first solutions company with a validated Science-Based Target initiative (SBTI) for net zero,” highlighting Grundfos’ dedication to substantial, accountable progress in sustainability.

Their roadmap includes a 50% reduction in absolute numbers of Scope 1 and 2 emissions by 2030, with a long-term vision of achieving net zero across all emission scopes by 2050.

Technological Innovations and Strategic Partnerships

One of the core themes discussed was the role of digital innovation in advancing Grundfos’ objectives. Tomlinson highlighted the company’s development of Grundfos Utility Analytics, a tool that integrates various data sources, including AMR and GIS information, to assess and mitigate risks within water networks. This approach underscores Grundfos’ commitment to harnessing technology for optimized water management solutions.

Moreover, Grundfos is engaging in strategic partnerships to enhance its impact. A notable collaboration is with Metasphere, an IoT and analytics company specializing in water and wastewater networks. Tomlinson explained the synergy, stating, “Metasphere’s solutions in wastewater monitoring and analytics are vital in innovating our approach to sewer security and network visibility.”

Addressing Global Water Challenges

The discussion also touched on regional disparities in water management. While Europe, particularly the UK, has heavily invested in wastewater solutions over the past decade, other regions like the U.S. still face significant challenges with outdated and deteriorating infrastructure. “The biggest potential for growth lies within the municipal market in the U.S.,” Gallindo remarked, noting the strategic positioning of their water utility division headquarters in Houston, Texas.

Grundfos’ approach isn’t just technological; it’s also deeply collaborative. By working directly with utilities and offering models that consider both Capital Expenditure (CapEx) and Operational Expenditure (OpEx), Grundfos ensures that solutions are both scalable and sustainable. As Tomlinson put it, “We are offering smart sewer solutions as a full-service model, charging a fee per day based on the utility’s existing infrastructure.”

Grundfos’ Four Strategic Drivers

Grundfos’ transformation strategy is anchored by four key drivers: sewer security, sustainable aquifer management, energy transition, and water access. Each of these drivers addresses critical sectors within the water industry, aiming to foster innovation and sustainable practices.

• Sewer Security: This involves leveraging IoT and data analytics to enhance the stability and efficiency of sewer networks, mitigating risks associated with Combined Sewer Overflows (CSOs).
• Sustainable Aquifer Management: Grundfos aims to combat aquifer depletion by providing solutions that help monitor and manage groundwater resources sustainably.
• Energy Transition: Grundfos is on a mission to reduce its carbon footprint significantly. Gallindo proudly mentioned, “We are committed to a 50% reduction in Scope 1 and 2 emissions by 2030 and aim for net zero by 2050.”
• Water Access: The flagship initiative aims to ensure water availability to millions worldwide, particularly in underserved regions.

Embracing the Future

Grundfos executives provided a hopeful perspective on the future, envisioning a world where innovative water solutions catalyze positive environmental and social change. By 2030, Gallindo sees Grundfos as a leader in climate and environmental solutions, far beyond being just a pump manufacturer. “We are in the climate business, the decarbonization business, and the water business,” she asserts with confidence.

Phil Tomlinson added, “We are working towards a future where Grundfos can offer network as a service, fully integrating digital and physical solutions for comprehensive water management.”

Conclusion

Grundfos is setting the stage for a transformative decade, leveraging innovation, strategic partnerships, and an unwavering commitment to sustainability. Their ambitious goals and broad vision are a testament to the company’s dedication to becoming a global leader in water and climate solutions. As they continue this journey, Grundfos’ impact on the water industry will likely serve as a blueprint for others aiming to marry technological advancement with environmental stewardship.

Keep an eye on Grundfos; they are not just changing the water industry—they’re rewriting the playbook.

My Full Conversation with Laura Gallindo and Phil Tomlinson (Grundfos)

These are computer-generated, so expect some typos

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Antoine Walter: Hi, Laura. I feel like the show. So, um, Curious to have Grundfos on that microphone, because if we had had that conversation, let’s say five years ago, it would sound not weird. I’m working for a piping company. I know that the pumping company can be as interesting as a piping company, but still kind of out of context in the scene of being a water player.

But lots of things have changed, and I guess it all started with the acquisition of Eurowater. Or did you have another step before which I missed?

Laura Gallindo: Let’s put it in some context here, right? I have been in the 10 years. I was in DuPont and on the water treatment side and joined Grundfos nine months ago.

They are kind of in the edge of this transformation journey, right? That started with a huge reorg that actually intend to focus on the verticals and be very market face. to be able to enable innovation, M& A activities, and the four verticals that, uh, you know, we’re born with this reorg, one of them is water utilities.

So I’d say more so when you really had a emphasis on the target of the utilities and the other side is agricultural, um, and farmers and things like that. But especially in the utility side, I think enable us and empower us to set out a direction on the strategy. So M& A, I think is. What’s speaking the highest to our innovation, especially in the digital space.

But Grown Foss I think is really rebranding itself to prove that it’s way more than a pump company. It’s already in the DNA and now it needs to be perceived in the brand to have what it takes. And we have a roadmap that hopefully will stand out in the market strongly.

Antoine Walter: I had that conversation on the microphone, I think two years ago with Patrick Decker, who then was the CEO of Xylem and I asked him, is it right to say that Xylem is on a transformational journey?

Maybe 10 years ago, you still were at Xylem. a pump company. You were far more than that, but you were seen by the market like a pump company. Yes. And more and more, you’re a solution provider and you’re kind of bridging different parts of the

Patrick Decker: industry. Is the journey over? That is correct. But the journey is not over.

We have been on a transformation. We will continue to be on a transformation and a transformation, not just in terms of what we bring into our portfolio of solutions from a product and technology standpoint. But also how we work in different ways based on our core. Would that be a fair comparison

Antoine Walter: and is that kind of what you’re heading towards or do you really craft your own path?

Laura Gallindo: I believe that, um, both Xilin and Grundfos, they’re equipped in different ways to, to really show up as a water solution company. I just think that the nature that not only do marketing strategies and the paths we take are unique and Grundfos is really bringing that, um, family Private owned DNA, right? So 87.

5 percent of Grandfus is owned by the foundation. And just, this gives us the ability to think on how we combine charity, how we combine a scaling financial trust fund module, right? Uh, with some partners that were even speaking here today that were in conversations, how we embed what access in our business module as the core and heart of Grandfus is to reach 300 million people.

It’s a huge ambition. By 2030,

Antoine Walter: 300 million people by 2030, which means you have a metric for 2024.

Laura Gallindo: That’s the thing. This ambition is a huge statement. We’re not byproduct of the number. We’re not surpasses. It’s possible to want to discuss what it takes to get there and be very open and transparent on saying that’s not easy and what are just difficult and what are going to do different.

To reach that. So one of the things you’re gonna do that actually, you’re gonna have a spoiler here is a partnership with the Economist Intelligent Unit of the Economist, where you’re gonna lead the way on helping the industry understanding how we can really be assertive and reliable, right? By having a third party validation on the parameters.

to measure access. So different players, they have out there different kind of targets by different years. What’s really wanted to kind of be accountable for the industry to be accountable for is about the measurement. So this is going to be a tool that’s really going to be enabled the industry.

Phil Tomlinson: That’s not saying something we will do.

We’re actively doing it. I can’t tell you what the 2024 number is, but we have a whole team of people who are actively doing this. And there’s a whole set of the organization that’s sculpted into actually how we push and pursue these and whether it’s. Through our own solutions and in pushing that through whether it’s putting the right thing into market, but ultimately with the stg6 goal in mind It’s not an aspiration.

It’s real life in the organization feel as you’re taking the

Antoine Walter: microphone Who of you arrived into groonforce first you as the external acquisition out of xpv portfolio and now into groonforce’s? Yeah, very rich family of solutions. Are you you mentioned you’re in for nine months if I had to bend?

Phil Tomlinson: Um, yeah, well, actually, I’m a little less than nine months for Grundfos, but obviously, I’ve been with Metasphere for 12 years.

So I’ve come with Metasphere as part of the acquisition. And I’ve now moved into working directly for Grundfos in the digital leadership team.

Antoine Walter: Let’s first get everybody up to date so that we then discuss Metasphere and how you integrate into Grundfos. But what’s Metasphere, how does it start and how does it lead to the acquisition by Grundfos?

Phil Tomlinson: Metasphere are an IoT and analytics business that are focused on water and wastewater networks for municipalities. That’s probably 98 percent of their business operating across the UK, Europe, the Middle East and Australia. particularly strong presence in Australia as well as the UK. They started really in 2006 as a management buyout of Logica, doing regional controlled telemetry systems through to RTU, mains power control, data loggers, and then the last probably 10 years we’ve become much better known for our wastewater network services, whether it’s monitoring of CSOs or SSOs, depending on where you are in the world, as well as billing.

pump station integration, treatment work integration, control systems, and the last couple of years with the ArtSewer solution into kind of the mass visibility of wastewater networks, integrating lots of kind of visual kind of data from the networks as well as into analytics so you can really get some strong visibility of the problems you’re seeing and how we challenge those.

Antoine Walter: And so your key investor used to be XPV until 2023 when you changed home and now you’re part of Grundfos.

Phil Tomlinson: That’s right. Yep.

Antoine Walter: Are you still in the integration process? process or are you now a full part of Grundfos?

Phil Tomlinson: That might vary who you ask to be honest. I ask you first. Yeah, so it’s not between us but possibly between people.

So Metasphere is still a standalone business within the water utility division of Grundfos, which probably explains why I say it depends who you ask. Whereas obviously I’ve stepped across and I fully work for Grundfos. The team who, apart from me with a transition who came over, are still working and driving Metasphere forward.

Antoine Walter: So you spun out out of Metasphere and now you’re part of Grundfos straight ahead. Yeah, that’s right. What’s your role then at Grundfos?

Phil Tomlinson: So I’m

Antoine Walter: the

Phil Tomlinson: digital solutions leader for water utilities. There’s four of us in the digital leadership team and my role is very much looking at actually, I sit between product development, product management, the tech and innovation function and the Metasphere development functions to look at how we bring and collate the right solutions together for the market.

It’s interesting for me having been a commercial director in this space for a really long time, but with the market understanding, This is what we need to do. And how do we align the organization to deliver that?

Antoine Walter: When you say need to do, is it stuff which can be done internally by moving pieces? Or does that mean adding new parts of the puzzle and eventually further build what Cornforce will be offering in the future?

Both from my perspective.

Phil Tomlinson: So there are things that where we link Metasphere solutions and the analytics arm of Metasphere, which is formerly called Meniscus into some of the existing Grundfos digital solutions, some of the existing Grundfos physical solutions, but also how we work with our partners, how we work with partners, Metasphere, historically, how we work with new partners, new, new market entrances is very much part of the option.

We’re not only in a, we’ll do it ourselves or we’ll acquire, you always get to that stage. If you work with another party and there’s a natural fit, it’s always an option. It’s always a potentially good option. If you’re the small party in that conversation, you know, that’s not the be all end all.

Antoine Walter: Let’s just check the first principles because I don’t want to give the impression force is paying monopoly because the foundation has money and can just spend it.

I guess, not I guess, I’m pretty sure of it. There must be a rational behind those moves as to what to build across what verticals. You mentioned four different verticals. How did you come up with four verticals? Do you know why? And then let’s take the one you’re specifically building to understand how the buildup is happening.

Laura Gallindo: Yeah, let’s put some context here on ground force, right? So we’re talking about the end of the second world war of 1945. The founder in his basement came up with, you know, a very innovative pump for that time. And since then have been leading the way. On that kind of innovation and edge on pump, but we have been spreading a hundred countries.

We have 60 entities, but you had to understand what markets you want to play to win. So with that strategy assessment, we decided that commercial, domestic, industry, and water utilities. would be the four verticals. So they, I would say that, um, industry as always has kind of that, uh, volume and presence, right?

They, they all have their importance, of course, in the strategic representation. The water utilities, it speaks very closely to the purpose and that’s not for coincidence that the safe water division, that’s our water access. So it’s an actual business. as a P& L and we have customers and all of that. So this is under the umbrella of water utilities, right?

But this is aligned with our mothership. It’s the 300 million I mentioned. What’s

Antoine Walter: the difference between commercial and industrial?

Laura Gallindo: When you talk about domestic, you’re talking about the heating, the cooling and the residential environment. And then for commercial, you’re talking about buildings and institutions.

So hotels

Phil Tomlinson: are apartment blocks. And it’s a really interesting operational split because obviously it was done to keep the teams closer to their customer basis and become more specialized. But the products available within each of the divisions are not uniquely available to those divisions. So each of the divisions cross sells across their functions to that.

Again, that’s physical and digital.

Antoine Walter: Stupid question to a company which is under a foundation and which hence doesn’t report any numbers publicly, but I will still try. If we take the water utility vertical, What’s your turnover and do you have targets to grow it in the next, let’s say, five, ten years?

There are always targets. I guess you have, but do you have some you can share?

Laura Gallindo: We can report, so last year in 2023, we reported 4. 6 billion euros in revenue across all divisions. The water utilities is smallest in revenue with the biggest potential for growth, especially in the municipal market. You look at the U.

S. as the single largest utility market. The headquarters for the water utility division is based in just out of Houston, in Brookshire, in Texas, uh, for a very strategic position in the U. S. So we are a player, but when you’re talking about scaling the water utilities, uh, vertical municipal, uh, is something that’s going to be key.

And planning waste water. And Metasphere is back here, a great ally for us to really create a new role in the value chain. And unlock not only what Metasphere is bringing immediately with the know how on source security, but how the telemetry, how the sensors, how IoT is going to play a key component for us in our innovation roadmap.

Only associate that with pumps and our controls and everything else, so.

Antoine Walter: But still, within Water Utility, you would have like the sexy part, drinking water. And, uh, I’m a wastewater to gas, right? I’m allowing myself to say that and the not so sexy part, which is everything linked to sewer and wastewater. And then within that not so sexy part, you can take the novel part, which is the wastewater treatment plant, or you can really take the literal sheet hole, which is the, the network and the sewer network.

And you say that’s. That’s my spot. How do you end up focusing on that? And what’s the market ratio of the challenge which you want to overcome where you think you have a differentiated approach and differentiated solution?

Phil Tomlinson: I wouldn’t say that there is the clean water versus wastewater sex separation you described there.

I think there is definitely a process to network separation within the organization. So you think about how they might be using commercial or industry. It’s a very processed part of a network, an internal clean network, then that definitely falls into that category. But I think for, for wastewater, it’s an area that has a huge amount of focus for innovation in the organization at the moment.

Actually, from a, from a divisional piece, a lot of the upcoming programs and products that we were coming through are in that sector. It’s not just around the kind of IOT space that Metasphere sits in, it is that how do we address this whole space as an organization and take a really concerted approach to try and drive change in this space.

Antoine Walter: But why would wastewater have a greater potential for innovation than drinking water?

Phil Tomlinson: My personal view is it’s globally behind. If you look at the investment profiles and where money has been spent, and this is across by utilities, by investors, as well as by an R and D and supply chain. If you look at the last 40 years, I would say 35 years of that has been highly focused on clean water.

Whether it’s leakage, whether it’s NRW, whether it’s metering, for example, that’s where the focus has been. Europe more broadly and very specifically the UK, the last 10 years, there’s been a real increase in investment in wastewater. The U S is a bit, it’s probably a bit. More balance but it’s the nature of the structure the market is quite different over there I think it definitely follows that there’s a lot more to be done in waste water it’s not it’s definitely not around the the kind of zeitgeist piece around this actually everyone’s incredibly upset with CSO kind of usage at the moment which is because everyone’s become aware of it rather than it being a new thing

Antoine Walter: on that specific topic.

combines with overflow CSO, isn’t that like the first ever victim on record of machine learning? Because to me, it’s like nobody ever looked what was happening and it was happening, but all of a sudden you get a machine’s brain who can see that there are patterns in flow and that those patterns mean that not all the water is flowing until the wastewater treatment plant where we measure the flow.

So it must be spilling from somewhere. And then you look at that somewhere and you find out to be the CSOs.

Phil Tomlinson: I would actually say it wasn’t that sophisticated, and I would say probably 99 percent of networks don’t have that level of sophistication today. Less of a

Antoine Walter: network, it would be like the treatment plants, which would see

Phil Tomlinson: You’re looking at an overflow point in a network, yeah, so bypass kind of storm channels at treatment work are an interesting, very sensible protection mechanism, but the challenges they present in terms of the environmental challenge of that is a really difficult conversation to have because it’s, If you don’t do that and you actually destroy your biological process at works, well what, what are you going to do for the next six months?

You can’t reverse the hydraulics of the network. So if you take out the treatment work, so you’re just going to be bypassing through that storm channel anyway.

Antoine Walter: Let me just get it in my work, because I had your explanation before we recorded, so I want to get everybody on that understanding level because what you say here is super interesting and super important, which is basically when you have an overflow in the sewers, there’s a rain event.

The first wave might be loaded, but the next waves are water. So you have a lot of water. One option is to use the overflow and then to flush it to the river, which has environmental consequences. The other option is to drive everything to the wastewater treatment plant, which, and that’s where your input is super interesting.

If you’re putting all that water with low loads or different loads compared to what’s usual into your biology, basically you’re washing off your biology, and then of course you have a better control over what’s going to flow into the river, but a biology needs weeks to months to recover, which means that your quality of treatment overall is going to suffer for the next Weeks as best to months.

That is the first time today. I’m hearing that probably because I wasn’t listening to the right people, probably. But still, that is super interesting because that puts into perspective what’s happening with the CSO.

Phil Tomlinson: It’s a choice. It’s a bad choice. But that’s actually this. But really, there’s probably two main reasons that they were designed to networks.

One is to protect the works. But the very original reason was actually to stop properties flooding further down the chain. They’re often referred to as a relief valve, release valve by people in the industry for exactly that purpose. Yeah, you could seal them up and none of the CSOs would discharge, but the amount of domestic flooding you’d get on the back of that.

You’ve also got the, the fact that actually the patterns of weather have changed. And the sewers were designed to cope with a pattern of rainfall. And this is kind of a global aspect of this that isn’t true anymore. You know, UK, they were designed for long, continuous rain. periods of kind of steady rainfall.

Yeah, we do still get that, certainly from this winter it would be, would be proven, but it’s the short sharp storms now that cause all the problem. And they’re also the things that are the hardest to keep at the sewers. Actually, you can keep those longer duration kind of low intensity pieces, you can use all the Well, the kind of surface training, surface water mechanisms, which are absolutely needed and really help.

But actually, if you have an incredibly sharp and high intensity storm, it’s going to get in there. And where, where you probably get an interesting piece that you were going before is actually, well, can you get to the point when you can discharge because you know, it’s only stormwater. So that second flow piece you were talking about before, that’s something that’s not really been done at the moment.

And with all the talk around water quality legislation and requirements, kind of moving hit into place in the UK in a year’s time, that could be an interesting angle to go forward. It’s actually, are we taking the conversation to say we want to get below 10 spills or we’re taking the conversation to we want to have zero impactful spills?

I don’t think that’s quite in the dialogue at the moment.

Laura Gallindo: And just an observation there, because we were in London, um, in another summit, right, a month ago, and, uh, there are city of Paris, uh, London, uh, New York, so many cities and there was a cohesive, you know, positioning. that they are committed to zero spills.

What’s it going to take together, but nobody want to be driven by meeting the regulation?

Phil Tomlinson: Well, that’s also when it’s one combined entity. When you’ve got a body that’s responsible for two different bodies looking at pluvial and fluvial flooding, but actually you’ve got a body that’s looking at surface water management and also a different body that’s looking at kind of underground water management.

But if they’re not actively working together on this, you’ve got no chance of resolving that. Because we also work with C40, the leading cities in the world, and that’s a challenge. We’ve actually started to look with them as to how they can predict and manage the impact of stormwater, actually looking at it as a human safety impact.

Where’s it going to get flooded? Where do we need to proactively manage and actually get kind of resources out to help protect people on this. That’s the focus of that. We’re still kind of helping and working to say actually we need to connect with the utility providers here so we can we can solve the same problem.

And it’s, that’s been a battle for years. You know, there’s one of the things around sustainable kind of drainage is actually looking at green spaces, urbanized green spaces. Getting funding for that through a traditional water process is really difficult. There’s loads of funding coming through. kind of air quality and green spaces impact air quality in cities.

Getting those two kind of schemes put together so the impact in the right places, again, is one of those things that we need to get better at as urban areas.

Antoine Walter: There’s a lot to unpack into that. I will just redirect the people because I had a conversation on that microphone with Glasgow City Council. It’s that far from Glasgow where they have this approach of having merged together every single water entity so that they could have those management of green spaces, keep the water on the surface, the smart canal and stuff like that.

That’s kind of a hint into the direction where it should be going. I have story time, my personal life. I’m the son of a hydraulic modeler. When. People were watching like cartoons as kids we had like vhs but not of cartoons we had like floods 1991 was a good one flood 1993 was a good one so my father used to record those and we knew that when we were going out on vacation just after.

Christmas between christmas and new year you would have one out of two year of flood event and he would leave to go and and have a look at that but he has been working his entire career. On the same place. Same department, same catchment area. So he knew that looking at three specific flow meters, he would have a pretty accurate idea of if he could go out and ski with us, or if he has to take the car and go home because that something’s gonna happen.

Where I’m leading with that story is that what this tend to tell me is that the truth is not so much in the network because when you’re in the network you’re almost too late to act because you get like reactive to what’s happening out there in the catchment. The truth is in modeling what’s happening in the catchment and in getting like the accurate data at all those points.

Models exist. It’s a conversation I had on the podcast as well with Imre Takacs from the podcast. dynamiter, modeling exists since the 80s. And it’s another conversation that I want to throw all of them that I have with Katiem about the specific modeling of the catchment of a water basin, for instance.

Yeah. The tools exist. Absolutely. Why can’t we just align on saying, hey, We take everything under one roof and we act on it. And the reason why I’m raising this question to you, when I might be raising the question to a municipality or something like that, is that as a company building a vertical cold water utility and looking at this kind of stuff, you would have the power to say, Hey, maybe what I’m missing is grab Catium or something like that, grab a sensor company and put everything under one roof and say that is our solution to whatever is happening in terms of stormwater management, sewer overflow, and sorry, 12 questions in one.

Phil Tomlinson: I think there’s a couple of them I can probably unpack without coming back on that. So, aside from the comment of models are as good as the point when they are finished being put together, models for wastewater have historically been really challenging because they’re not pressured. You don’t have constant flow, just the whole dynamic of it is completely different.

You couple that with the fact that They’ve never really had much data be put into them, let alone any real time data, because the kit wasn’t installed, even where you’ve got pumps in the network, actually getting usable flow rate data from those pumps. is not common. So I think the, the role of models within this is changing and actually we have to utilize what’s already been put in place.

There are no consideration. There’s no consideration of we have to start again on this. It’s just, it’s impossible. But whether it’s looking at existing pumps, how do we connect those through existing instrumentation, existing models? How do we layer into that things like accurate kind of hyperlocal rain forecasting models, how do we actually put the machine learning piece, how do we, that, that.

PC was talking about your dad’s experience that he knew under those conditions under those sensors, he had to go and do something, but that was at one place, actually, how can we, the solutions exist have exactly that approach across the whole network. You can do that with data. It’s already in, you might want to put additional kind of data collection sources in, if you’ve got particular hotspots or actually one of the main.

The main things that Metasphere did that really got Grunfoss excited was the art sewer piece. It was actually around getting visibility of sewer networks, getting past just understanding a discharge point, because if you’re back into that, it’s too late, you’re just reporting at that stage.

Laura Gallindo: You’re not preventing.

If you want to get into that

Phil Tomlinson: prevention piece, you have to, you have to build an actual model That gives you what’s going on in the network. And to do that, you have to start getting more information. Actually, one of the key parts of my role with Grunfoss going forward is how do we, how do we build what you were just talking about?

Because we have a lot of the building blocks. If you look actually a lot of the work that’s been, we’ve got pumps and we’ve got deep, deep understanding of pumps and how they operate and actually what. what the curves of performance mean on those. But you start to link that with some of the existing digital tools around condition monitoring, around remote performance at bumps, into some of the work done by Metasphere into understanding flows and dynamics of flows for the network and catchments.

And you start looking at saying, well actually we’ve got a good flow right here, you can actually model through expected flows across catchments as well as understanding the risk at your discharge points. And then you start to get into some of the river quality pieces and say, well we know, is this water utility problem?

Is this an agricultural problem? Is this a road problem? would run off problem, which is not something that’s really talked about very much at all, but it’s a massive contaminant. If we don’t start thinking about this as my use cases, kind of a holistic network or a series of kind of connected assets that we have to do that, it’s absolutely mandatory.

But if we don’t start getting a kind of a broader stakeholder engagement on this to actually try and solve the problem, rather than just solving bits of the problem, we’re going to spend. Well, we’ll spend the rest of our careers talking about it.

Antoine Walter: You mentioned the roads and the wash off. I don’t have the exact statistic in mind anymore, but a good percentage of the micro plastics we see are actually what’s washed off from the tires, which leave stuff on the road.

So

Phil Tomlinson: let them break dust and type is attires and all kinds of horrible stuff that’s isn’t there? Yeah, absolutely.

Antoine Walter: Which And it’s part of my notes I took in a workshop you had earlier today, which leads me to all those stories around the sewer overflows. It’s bad press. You will never have, like, good press about, hey, no sewer overflow, that’s supposed to be the standard.

Even if people don’t get that, maybe it’s good that from time to time you have an overflow of rainwater. That is something that people can grasp and understand. So what they do is that they grasp it, and they express their misalignment with what’s happening, because that’s Pretty straightforward, shit water goes to the river.

How do you bring that other message forward that it’s not only that? Yes, some of what’s in the sewer is going to rivers and we should manage that, but what we said before about what’s happening in the treatment plant, all the other sources like agricultural runoff and stuff like that, and all the other aspects which need more education, more and more

Phil Tomlinson: misuse.

Sue, is that part of your mission? The bad press and the vilification of Ford companies over CSO discharges? I feel decidedly, I have two faces of it. I have one, which is, yeah, that’s really bad. And it’s, I think the scale of it, the fact that it’s happening is I understand ’cause of what I do. Some of the biggest kind of bad press has been around the choices that those companies have made and how they’ve behaved around it.

Actually bringing a light to that I think is an incredibly good thing. And actually, if we hadn’t had this change in the public’s engagement with this, would we now be seeing the drive we’re seeing to get this resolved in what we’re talking about doing? Yeah, but not, certainly not on the timeline we’re now talking about.

So actually, whilst it might be very uncomfortable at the moment, I think it’s an incredibly good thing. The continued general education? Yeah, I think that’s awesome. Everyone’s responsibility. It’s certainly everyone’s responsibility who is engaged with it and understands a bit about it. I think the conversation we were having earlier is the understanding about choice.

That’s never talked about. It’s just a, you did this, you’re bad, you’re wrong. But that’s a, I think that’s a general current kind of media representation thing more than anything else. If you’re looking at an example of how the industry has tried, actually quite hard, and hasn’t got there yet in terms of managing that education and PR pieces around wet wipes, so back to the misuse piece, we’re still not there on that.

Antoine Walter: Fatbergs.

Phil Tomlinson: We’re not even close to being there on that, and actually that’s got quite a broad public consensus. What lessons can we learn from that in terms of what can we do, and actually what do we need the public to do to make this happen?

Antoine Walter: We talked about the challenge. We talked about what you’re building with your water utility.

vertical and divisional Grundfos. I would like to have like a bit of hope, like what’s, what are you building and where are you heading towards? And in your glossary, which is distributed to people attending your round table, there is gold standard. Gold standard, what the water sector should be aiming for, the key objectives and strategies to provide the best possible outcomes.

It’s written next to a Grundfos logo. So I guess that’s what you’re building. What is your offer to those utilities? What are some numbers? Where you can say, working with grown force and our suite of solutions today, you could unlock this, this, this, and down the line. On top of that, you’re gonna have also the this and this.

Replace the this with actual facts.

Laura Gallindo: source security was just born literally, which is and and is the most mature of the four themes We chose to set the direction. Of the water utilities. And just to put some context, Antoine, on the groundwater and irrigation side, we are dealing with the sustainable aquifer management.

If you’re a pump company contributing to the problem of depleting our aquifers from having this vantage point, how we can make sure that in our roadmap of innovation, we’re going to have the sensors and everything that actually helps our customers understand when, to move, how, and, you know, how to replenish.

So back to the sewer security side, this is really part of our thought leadership. So it’s really not about the one that we find

Antoine Walter: Before we go back to the sewer security, so you said four. Sewer security.

Laura Gallindo: So let’s talk about the four, uh, drivers. I’ll say drivers, even back to your, is that about drinking water waste?

What I’ll say that not really about that, but about what’s going to drive. Sewer security, whatever it takes, what’s going to drive sustainable quake free management, we, uh, kindly call SAM. Energy transition, that’s a transversal, right? To actually to ground flows in all divisions. And, uh, water access.

That’s the one I mentioned before in terms of our ambition, right? And you have a whole division with more than 20 people just dedicated.

Antoine Walter: 10 percent of the energy in the world. is consumed by pumps. As Tom alluded to swiftly between two transitions today, the water sector alone has five times more carbon emission than the entire aviation sector.

And a lot of that is the pumps. So what is your hot take on energy transition? What are you, what

Laura Gallindo: So energy transition is all about climate, right? For us in decarbonization. So it’s really in Grundfos. By the way, we are the first one solutions company with a validated SBTI. So the science based net zero target, which is a huge process to even be approved.

So with pride that we change frameworks, we had to hire experts to even get there. Right? So this means that we have a whole roadmap. By 2030, we are committed to 50 percent reduction in absolute. Numbers of scope 1 and 2, but 99 percent of our footprint is in Scope 3. So although this sounds fancy, it is a huge challenge to get that resolved when a product is out of our gate, right?

Super fair

Antoine Walter: for you to mention this straight away. You set a target of 50 percent on Scope 1 and 2 and actually We have a target. Scope 3 is your customers, right?

Laura Gallindo: Is our customers. Upstream

Phil Tomlinson: and downstream, so it’s supply chain as well as So how do you

Laura Gallindo: Scope 2 is energy, right? So our supply chain in terms of energy and 3 encompasses the customers.

and the entire supply chain, but

Antoine Walter: do you have a target? We have,

Laura Gallindo: we have a target. So by 2030, we’re going to have a commitment for 25 percent reduction in absolute scope tree and by 2050, net zero across all the scopes.

Antoine Walter: How do you do that? You do that with wifi, water, wireless.

Laura Gallindo: There’s the whole framework, climate action, water action, circular business, water access.

So there is a whole, and even this is a commitment. in the SBTI. So the parameters that you’re setting for this commitment has been audited and reported through the

Phil Tomlinson: most reliable. One of the big things that we look at is things like natural capital. There’s actually quite a lot of recent talk around the fact that we don’t value natural capital properly.

And actually it certainly doesn’t get its way properly into business case justifications. All of the existing target driven around sustainability, none of it actually makes allowance for what we’ve just been talking about doing. It’s all around efficiency. You think about as a pump company, it’s all going to come down to how much and how they’re built and how we can enforce that.

But actually, when you start looking at the capability we can drive and the benefits we can drive, you can actually get net positive actions out of a lot of the stuff we’re starting to do. At the moment, that is quite difficult to calculate, but there’s a lot of work being done. Not by us, but actually by bodies as to how we do that properly to really get everyone thinking along these lines.

Antoine Walter: Beyond the joke I made about wireless water, to get my understanding right on that, that means pumps will always need to consume energy, which means they will always have a kind of impact, even if that energy becomes fully green, it’s going to have for sure, but still there will be some residual impact.

What you’re saying is that, for instance, if I’m keeping water on the surface, then I’m recreating green space, that green space has to have a positive impact, in which case my kind of nature based solution, which is an actuated way to have an extensive part of the network, will compensate for those emissions.

And that’s just one example we’re picking on, because that’s probably the hardest to measure. You might have some other ones which are easier to measure, like biogas production, you know, waste freedom plant and stuff like that. So that’s how you bring everything into a, it’s bringing things into a balance.

It’s not like bringing energy to zero and then, okay, you have verticals. Sewer security is a vertical, sustainable aquifer management is a vertical, and then you have water access, I guess, is a vertical as well, and then the horizontal would be energy transition.

Laura Gallindo: Yeah, so they are drivers of our strategy. I see.

Yeah, they’re drivers and enablers. So basically, when you decide from a product development perspective, right, from the marketing activation, you set. Your focus, our founder would say, the world is full of problems that you can solve in a better way. If you try to really resolve the thousands that is in our reach, we’re not going to have any impact, you know?

So like streamlining that focus is more for really a business strategy standpoint, which follows through with our marketing strategy, with our product development strategy, with our M& A strategy. So empower ourselves to be not only start a conversation, like sustainable equity for management doesn’t have the material that sewer security has.

This is a boat. This, this took like internal chills to be overcome for us to even be talking about as a pump company. You don’t talk about depletion of aquifers, right? You are pumping water. Plus if the

Antoine Walter: aquifer is depleting, you need stronger pumps, bigger pumps. But that’s

Laura Gallindo: the thing, the numbers are huge and We had enough.

We’re not only pumping and and contributing to the degradation, but why we do that to have a huge footprint of carbon, and this is what ownership is, is that we have had enough, we are making our own assessment, we being vulnerable and transparent, but we’re also gonna create a business module that addresses this strategy.

So this is more so a driver night strategy that you wanted to fulfill. And this is just the beginning.

Antoine Walter: Good. Really great on you. But why?

Laura Gallindo: Because we are not a pump company. We are water solutions, right? Our purpose is to really create solutions to address the water and climate challenges. Yeah,

Phil Tomlinson: I think you used the word in there that actually is the driver of this.

People don’t work for the company because their purpose is to work for a pump company. There might be some still because that’s how they started, right? But I think it’s the increasing recognition that people need. People want to make a difference. Well, the point when the, the Metasphere acquisition was coming to a close, there was such a clear alignment on those cultural purposes that at that stage from being in the outside, we could see that this was before the kind of piece around social security and the sustainable black for management.

You could see that drives make a difference. And I think this is giving it a body. This is giving it a really targeted specific body that the parts of the organization can really get behind. And it might be one of those, it might be multiple of those, but it’s, it definitely embodies. That purpose in a fit that’s right for today

Antoine Walter: coming back to my question on sewers security i’m super happy about the sidetrack because we learn a lot of stuff here what would be your drivers and what you can offer your customers when it comes to security which you can then put like facts and figures and say working with ground force here’s.

Your perks.

Phil Tomlinson: There’s a couple of things. I mentioned before that our position is we’re not requiring anyone to replace anything. So we will work with them on where they’re at. Everyone’s at a different stage on their journey on this one. We have lots of bits of the puzzle we can plug in there. We have a huge amount of expertise in the organization about lots of parts of that chain.

And actually what, Where we’re going to get to with this is actually broadening out those engagements and partnerships with other bodies. We can be that organization that brings that wrap around it. I could easily sit here and say, yeah, I’m going to come to you and you’re not going to have any spills from your network when you deploy this solution.

Yeah, I could say that, but proving it is something quite different. At the moment, there are too many things that even if we took that wholesale approach, there will be too many things that are still outside of our control. So it’s going Going to have to be that, that kind of long term partnership with a utility.

We’re quite happy to put skin in the game on this. We have that approach that we will do this as a partnership. It’s not, you’re going to pay us all this money and we’re just going to do some stuff for you. And then if it, something doesn’t quite go right, we walk away. It can’t operate like that. This is not going to change overnight.

Antoine Walter: Broad answer to a broad question. So my bad, let me be more specific. I’m going to take two use cases. And for each of these use cases, you’re going to give me one single. added value you can bring as Grunfos. My use case number one is probably going to be for you. My use case number two is probably good for you.

Use case number one, I’m a UK utility name kept private because we don’t want to point fingers. And I have that problem of sewer overflows and I might be under capitalized right now. So I’m not quite sure I can put some CapEx into my network. What can you do for me?

Phil Tomlinson: The move to non CapEx based solutions isn’t restricted by supply chain.

It’s actually generally restricted by the need to get things onto the balance sheet here. By the way that the utilities work, what I will actually say is in other areas of the world, we are offering the kind of smart sewer solutions as a full as a service model. We’re charging them as a, as a X amount per day.

I say X amount because it varies slightly depending on where you are in the world and what they already have. That is absolutely not a restriction to doing something. And you can start small. You can start a catchment. You can start a subcatchment. We’re doing work where we’re looking at modeling the impact of rainfall at a subcatchment level for utilities in North America at the moment.

So actually we can tell you exactly on your trunk mains, where this is hitting and where it’s coming from the network. And we could start to model down the impacts of those into actually your, your problem areas. It isn’t a capex issue from a UK perspective. There is a timing issue, which anyone who operates here will understand.

Pretty well at the moment, but it’s, we’re also seeing an acceleration into unpaid at the moment as people are starting to use transitional funding to get things started. It can be done as CapEx, it can be done as OpEx and whether or not anyone is actually really looking at a Totex conversation here, there is a way of getting things done.

Antoine Walter: Great answer, but I feel like. Then my second use case isn’t that pertinent either, but I’m going to try it. Nevertheless, my second use case is going to be US based this time. The US has these study done by the EPA regularly about the states of the networks and every time it’s a bit worse. So they have crumbling networks to, to put words on it.

Roughly 32 percent on the latest study of the network were. in out of order or time elapsed categories. So really the cost to bring back that into shape is at the latest estimate, 600 something billion dollars. Okay. Pretty bad situation to start with, which means that they are leaking 150 liters per day per capita.

Does Grundfos has a solution for that?

Phil Tomlinson: I think from a pure, yes, take some of that out, from a pure leakage piece, then actually as a field, as a field hardware solution, actually, when you think what Grundfos is known for, not from a digital solution. Yes. One of the tools in the digital suite, uh, is called Grundfos Utility Analytics.

And one of the main things it does is it incorporates AMR, AMI data into the platform, along with all the GIS information, anything you’ve got from SCADA. And it will look at things like condition assessment. So you’ll look at risk, risk kind of categories within your network of actually bits of pipe replacement, where you’ve got expected leakage based on those flow rates and your AMR data.

That is perfectly doable within tools we have today. From a traditional, have these bits of kit we can send out to the operatives in the field. No, we don’t do that. But actually from a coordinated kind of system solution piece, we have that today. And I think that in itself is quite indicative of the, of the journey that Grundfos are going on at the moment, moving away from just being a pump company.

Laura Gallindo: None of the four drivers are digitalization. Digital, right? But they are pretty much the enabler of everything we mentioned. And source security is kind of when you ask, We ask about the golden standards is a big problem. Nobody has a solution, but definitely need to work around and technology and digital is the path, right?

Antoine Walter: I noted it and I’m so glad of it because that’s, that’s a good sign because companies with the digitalization as, as a driver in 2024 is so 2000 ish. I mean, it’s, it’s a horizontal. So it’s, it’s good that you treat it that way in my very humble opinion, which is worth what it’s worth. To, to close that deep dive, I have a simple question, which is, I get that Grundfos is no longer a pump company.

That’s you are into a transition period. You have a lot of target by 2030. So please, for each of you complete me that sentence by 2030

Laura Gallindo: Grundfos is by 2030. Groofers is a climate environmental water solutions company. I would say that we are on the climate business. We are on the decarbonization business and the water business as a brand.

It’s a big ambition, but that’s, I mean, marketing. So I can, I can’t have it. say,

Phil Tomlinson: spot the marketing versus the technology first. The technology,

Laura Gallindo: the rationale. I’m like, what are the emotions going to evoke?

Phil Tomlinson: My kind of North Star I’m trying to change the moment is how do we build as a network, as a service, certain tools that fits into that broadest question is how do we plug in and actually how do we change things?

And actually, we get to the point where we’re really monetizing, you know, you know, meters flow, meters can flow out of a pump, sell a pump that way. If we can actually get an organization as big as ours into that kind of path, then we can shape the world a bit differently.

Antoine Walter: I think we have two halves of the same truth and, uh, reconciling it together is, Pretty interesting.

Thanks a lot for everything you shared in this deep dive. To round it off, I have a set of rapid fire questions which are tailored for the Bluetech forum. So you’re going to know that. Leave it up to you if you want to answer both of you all of the questions or if you want to design someone of you who answers each of the questions.

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Rapid fire questions:

Antoine Walter: The first one is what is your definition of innovation in action?

Laura Gallindo: Collaboration is all I think it’s, uh, breaking out from the thinking of the water, right? Water talks to water and do a great job on that, right? It’s when you break out of the bubble and we really take one agenda, we have one goal and we all stick together.

Right. But how can you really make that stronger to the Elon Musk of the world? You know, so for me, innovation that we need, where we need to go, the scale we need to go is to do the great things you’re doing, faster pace, higher scale and out of our ecosystem.

Antoine Walter: You mentioned Elon Musk in between. He has solved the water crisis.

I don’t know if you know, but, uh, desalination and solar power. That’s it. You said it. So it’s, it’s good. I’m not even sure why we all meeting here because. Why did I

Laura Gallindo: even bring this name up here?

Antoine Walter: That gives you a little bit more time to think about innovation and action. Sorry for the rant. Without being

Phil Tomlinson: thrown off by Elon Musk.

I think where I was going with that is actually innovation and action for me is living with change with purpose. So innovation is actually just about change. It’s not about technology because it’s just much more. processing people. Actually, if we have change and purpose and drive to do it, innovational action will happen.

Antoine Walter: What is the most innovative water solution you’ve seen in the past 12 months?

Laura Gallindo: Technology can be a module for

Phil Tomlinson: me. Up to you. I remember seeing, a year ago, one of the simplest but brilliant innovation solutions I’ve had for a long time. It was almost these tiny little, almost like rubberized peas, that were injected into clean water network and they were almost sucked into a leak.

I really can’t think what they’re called, but it was this incredibly simple, brilliant innovation. for solving leaks in the network, especially small leaks in

Laura Gallindo: the network. I think the innovations that enable water access to scale, some incremental innovation, but that still enable millions to get access like solarized pumps, things like that, the water ATM, they have been incremental from a technology standpoint, no breakthrough there.

It’s just the way they were framed targeting the, uh, you know, Africa and Asia. And I think that this really, for me, is at the core of innovation, right? Enabling water access.

Antoine Walter: In one word, what is the biggest challenge facing the water industry today? Consensus. That’s a good one.

Laura Gallindo: Fear.

Antoine Walter: Oh, that’s an interesting one.

I, I have to refrain myself to go on a sidetrack because if not, we’re going to be locked in the building. Who is a water innovator you admire and why? I’m not going to choose a person, but I’ll choose

Phil Tomlinson: a company. And it’s Grundfos. No, I’m not that cheesy, right? So it’s the joys of being British. Um, I’m actually going to say PUB because they don’t do, they don’t do innovation for the sake of it.

Yep. But they recognized a long time ago that without material and continuous innovation, they had societal collapse issues. And it’s got so embedded into the culture there. You know, we’ve seen this as an organization that trade and deal with them as well as someone who’s trying to do different things with them.

They engage on the public forum. They engage on the international ward forum, and it can be. Simple people process. And it can be actually, yeah, we like that technology, but we’re actually going to bring you into our ecosystem and we’re going to nurture you and we’re going to actually help you build and grow.

Cause that makes, it gives them more security about what they’re trying to do. I’m not really aware of anyone else that takes it to that level.

Laura Gallindo: I’ll give you a person because I’m a great admirer of him. He’s Mehul Patel. He’s, uh, Orange County Water District, right? And I think that he’s an example that, um, even in the midst of, uh, public opinion, strong public opinion against it, uh, in the political scenario of the bargaining of the funds.

in the challenges of the technology and, uh, the, the liability that brings with that. It’s solvable, you know, not only the drug people were used, but we are for DPR. And that’s the answer for much of the crisis, right?

Antoine Walter: It’s interesting because you’re, you’re still an example of innovators are. End users slash utilities, which is an interesting pattern.

What’s one single piece of advice you would give to emerging water entrepreneurs?

Phil Tomlinson: Understand what drives the market, because that will drive your timing and engagement. It also drives who you engage with, because it means things don’t happen that quickly and you need to plan for that. Unfortunately.

Laura Gallindo: Back to the one word I gave on the fear, I think fear can scare away.

Fear can bring scarcity. I think sometimes our sector is perceived by having too much fear to move quick or right to take risk or to bring new technology, but it’s really not as we just need to be conservative talking about safety. So I think for these entrepreneurs, just don’t scare away. Care now we thinking that there’s no world adopters.

There’s only fear, like just sit through and, uh, actually enable us to convert fear into something.

Antoine Walter: What’s the common misconception about water innovation that you’d like to debunk?

Phil Tomlinson: I’ve probably said it a couple times already. It doesn’t have to be. That is a conception that it has to be, you know, it has to be a kind of technology levels of innovation.

That’s, it can be something incredibly simple.

Laura Gallindo: I’ll go back to what access is my main theme today. I think that we need to understand that, yes, we try to bring global frameworks and everything, but just keeping in mind that The local, the communities, they know the best for them. And I think that kind of not trying to really push something in, but really being humble to enable and empower the communities with something simple.

But it’s about empowerment more than just new technology, new everything. So it’s about creating these The scale of SMEs, right, within the communities, uh, again, on the water access theme that I,

Antoine Walter: I’ve spoken a lot. What is one water taboo that you broke or that you believe we should break?

Phil Tomlinson: That we should break is the cycle for treating wastewater.

And that is a widely used water source. I subscribe to that one.

Laura Gallindo: Yeah, I think reused, uh, right? Uh, just from toilet to tap. This is, uh But not

Antoine Walter: that one though. That wording doesn’t exist. Yeah. We delete it. It’s, it’s out of history. It’s, uh It’s done. So we don’t need to bring it anymore.

Laura Gallindo: It doesn’t count.

Okay,

Antoine Walter: the point is good. We just don’t use the word toilet to tap. They don’t exist.

Laura Gallindo: Oh, what’s the answer?

Antoine Walter: Whatever, which is not that just not just not toilets I guess what you said before dpr direct put them over here Or second life water or new water like pubi does or what you want actually already pre loved water Whatever, you know, these these second hand websites are using but not toilet to tap.

That’s just yeah a disaster It’s it’s it’s It’s using fear at the really wrong place, but my two cents. Last question for you, what

Phil Tomlinson: can and should I do for you? Share the, we talked before around the continuing role for education. People like you in the role you have, have a completely different reach to those of us who sit in the specific application, so it’s the market, you have a voice.

That’s different to ours and it’s important to carry that educational piece.

Antoine Walter: That’s just because you’re not following the Xelem footprints. Just, just sponsor Manchester United as they have City and then you don’t need me.

Laura Gallindo: I was going to say provoke and here he comes with a provocation. I would say you are in a great chair to provoke but also to connect, right?

So, uh, you really see some dotted lines that we, in our day to day, are just not seeing and I think bringing people together with the same, right? Agenda, it’s some unique position you have to

Antoine Walter: well, thanks a lot for everything you shared today We will be kicked out of that house all together. So that’s cool We have a new thing in common if you want to connect with you Where shall I redirect them the best

Phil Tomlinson: linkedin is probably still the easiest

Antoine Walter: option generally So as always I looked at the description.

In the descriptions, you find the links to both of your LinkedIn’s. Thanks a lot for having been with me today and talk to you soon. Yes. Thank you.

Laura Gallindo: Very fun chat. Thank you.

Other Episodes:

FREDsense: Revolutionizing Water Quality Monitoring with Biosensor Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 7 May 2025

Swirltex: Revolutionizing Wastewater Treatment with Bubbly Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 30 April 2025

Blue Foot Membranes: The Next Evolution in Water Filtration

By Antoine Walter | 16 April 2025

Echo River Capital: Pioneering the Future of Water Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 3 April 2025

1001 Fontaines: Engineering Sustainable Water Access Through Social Entrepreneurship

By Antoine Walter | 22 March 2025

Amazon’s Water Footprint: Tech Giant’s Quest for Water Sustainability

By Antoine Walter | 19 March 2025

Turing: The AI Revolution Quenching the Water Industry’s Thirst for Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 26 February 2025

Altillion: Pioneering Digital Intelligence for Water Asset Management

By Antoine Walter | 6 February 2025

Flocean: Pioneering Ocean-Based Water Solutions

By Antoine Walter | 15 January 2025

Botanical Water Technologies: Harvesting Liquid Gold from Plants

By Antoine Walter | 4 December 2024

The post How Grundfos is Reinventing Itself as a Global Leader in Water Tech Solutions appeared first on (don't) Waste Water.

Imagine a product that makes water treatment more efficient, reduces harmful chemical use in everyday cleaning products, and cuts energy consumption by 90%: does it sound too good to be true? Well, this is what SUDOC is making happen. Wanna learn more? Let’s explore:

with Roger Berry – Co-Founder & CEO at SUDOC

Resources:

SUDOC’s website

Momentum Capital’s website

PureTerra Ventures’ website

Christopher Gasson’s appearance on the podcast

is on Linkedin

Antoine Walter on LinkedIn

Full Video:

The Chemical Catalyst Revolution: Meet SUDOC

SUDOC, a company co-founded by Roger Berry, has developed a unique technology called “new TAMLs.” These are ultra-efficient catalysts designed to mimic the enzymes in our bodies, specifically the ones in our liver that detoxify and break down chemicals efficiently. The challenge? Translating this biological efficiency into a robust, scalable solution for industries like water treatment and commercial laundry. And SUDOC has cracked that code.

So, what’s a catalyst, anyway? In simple terms, it’s a substance that speeds up a chemical reaction without getting consumed in the process. Traditional catalysts in industrial settings are effective but often come with hefty costs, both financially and environmentally. They use massive amounts of energy, generate toxic byproducts, and require substantial amounts of chemicals. SUDOC’s innovation offers a smarter, greener way forward by leveraging a molecule that is incredibly small yet vastly more powerful.

Why Size Matters: Small but Mighty

The new TAML catalysts developed by SUDOC are astonishingly tiny—100 times smaller than their predecessors. This size reduction is crucial because it allows for more precise control over chemical reactions. Imagine trying to paint a tiny detail with a large brush—inefficient, right? A smaller, more agile brush would give you better control and accuracy, much like how SUDOC’s catalysts provide unmatched precision in chemical processes.

But it’s not just about size. These new catalysts are also 1,000 times more potent, which means they can perform the same reactions faster and with less energy. The implications are massive: from reducing the energy costs associated with wastewater treatment to making everyday cleaning products safer and more effective.

How Does SUDOC Make Its Magic?

Berry explains that SUDOC’s catalyst technology is inspired by nature, specifically the peroxidase enzymes in our liver that detoxify harmful substances. The breakthrough came when Dr. Terry Collins, the father of green chemistry at Carnegie Mellon University, figured out how to mimic the efficiency of these enzymes. He developed a casing around the active site of these enzymes, allowing them to remain stable and functional outside the human body—a critical factor for commercial viability.

Traditional catalysts break down too quickly or require extreme conditions to function. The new TAMLs, however, have a much longer lifespan and operate under milder conditions, making them ideal for a wide range of applications. SUDOC is taking this innovation and applying it in real-world scenarios, like commercial laundry and wastewater treatment, with compelling results.

Real-World Impact: From Laundry to Wastewater Treatment

Let’s take a look at commercial laundry, one of the areas where SUDOC’s catalysts are making a significant splash. In a pilot study at a hotel in Salt Lake City, the new TAML catalysts cut laundry cycle time by a third, reduced chemical use by 25%, energy consumption by 60%, and water usage by half. Think about that for a moment. Not only does this mean lower costs for the business, but it also offers substantial environmental benefits. Less water, less energy, fewer chemicals—what’s not to love?

Now, let’s switch to the water treatment industry. This sector is notorious for being slow to adopt new technologies, but SUDOC is gaining traction here too. Their catalysts have demonstrated the ability to make existing systems like electrochemical oxidation 40 times more efficient, reducing energy demands by 90%. These numbers are game-changing for industries like wastewater treatment, where costs and regulatory compliance are major concerns.

The Challenges of Changing the Game

You’d think that such an impactful innovation would take the market by storm immediately, right? But it’s not always that simple. Berry candidly explains that the water industry, in particular, is resistant to change. “One investor once told me that the first question she asks any water technology is, ‘Do you have another way of making money?’” says Berry. The market is slow-moving, and companies are often hesitant to switch from tried-and-tested methods, even when better options exist.

That’s where SUDOC’s business model comes in. Instead of focusing solely on the water sector, they’ve diversified. They have a dual business model: one side develops and sells cleaning products that are already generating revenue, while the other targets water treatment opportunities. This dual strategy allows them to sustain growth while navigating the complexities of a market that isn’t always eager to change.

A Dual Business Strategy That’s Winning

By applying its new TAML technology to both cleaning products and water treatment, SUDOC has found a way to balance immediate revenue with long-term growth potential. For instance, their cleaning products are already being used by over a hundred customers, including a major distributor to health and sports clubs in North America. This side of the business is relatively straightforward—people need cleaning products, and SUDOC offers a safer, greener alternative at competitive prices.

On the water treatment side, things are more complex, but the potential is enormous. SUDOC’s catalysts are a drop-in solution that can be added to existing water treatment systems without requiring expensive new infrastructure. They’re already working with several large companies to test the technology, and early results are promising. Berry is confident that this two-pronged approach will allow SUDOC to not only survive but thrive in both markets.

What’s Next for SUDOC?

While they’ve already made impressive strides, SUDOC is just getting started. With a recent $10 million funding round, they’re poised to scale production and bring their game-changing technology to more industries and more applications. The goal? To become the first chemical company you could actually love, one that makes chemistry better for people and the planet.

Their sights are set high, aiming to break into utility-scale water treatment within the next decade, all while continuing to expand their footprint in commercial and industrial markets. “We want to create so many good use cases in the industrial sector and in the cleaning product sector that the big giants will come knocking on our door,” says Berry.

Looking Forward

In a world where innovation is often flashy and overhyped, SUDOC’s approach feels refreshingly straightforward: create something smaller, faster, and more powerful that actually solves real-world problems. By rethinking how we use and interact with chemicals, they’re not just making better products—they’re laying the foundation for a more sustainable future.

So, keep your eyes on SUDOC. They’re making waves, and it looks like those waves are only going to get bigger. And who knows? Maybe one day, their new TAMLs will make you feel a little bit better about doing your laundry.

My Full Conversation with Roger Berry on SUDOC

These are computer-generated, so expect some typos

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Introduction and Welcome

Antoine Walter: Hi, Roger. Welcome to the show.

Roger Berry: Antoine. Pleasure to be here.

Investment Announcement at Bluetech Forum

Antoine Walter: Actually, that conversation takes its root in a forum. We attended together some weeks ago, the Bluetech forum. We were all having a blast and all of a sudden someone steals the scene and says, Hey, by the way, we have something to announce.

And that’s you stepping in with I think it was Nick from Pure Terra who was with you and

announcing that

just assigned an investment agreement together. they were investing 4 million into SUDOC, right?

Roger Berry: That’s correct. As part of a 10 million extension of our first round.

Sudoc’s Market and Disruption Potential

Antoine Walter: I was trying, you know, to look at which box you would fit in the water world. And that’s not that straightforward.

the best I could find was wastewater bioseeds chemicals. And you’ll tell me if that makes about sense for you, that’s a market of about 730 million per year. So it’s not. small. And if I’m right, that’s the market you aim to disrupt. So first, is that the right box to put you in? And if not, what would be the right box?

And if it’s the right box to put you in, what’s the problem with that box, which you believe you can do better with Sudoc?

Challenges and Opportunities in Wastewater Treatment

Roger Berry: it’s one box. one of the powerful things about our businessis we’re really relevant anywhere you have an oxidation reaction and one of the places where oxidation is important and becoming more important is in wastewater treatment. And this whole idea of the emerging Contaminants that we have. Ironically, there’s nothing emerging about them. They’ve been around for decades and decades. The only thing emerging is really our awareness of these contaminants. 90 percent of these contaminants in Europe really come from our personal care products and our pharmaceuticals. So think of all the antibiotics you take in your own household and how they end up in our water streams.

And just as one example, , there’s an arms race between our biology and the Chemistry of antibiotics in the sense that we keep developing resistance. And so the presence of these antibiotics in our water streams is a health challenge. And more and more governments are starting to say that we have to treat these contaminants.

Antoine Walter: But there are means to treat those micropollutants or emerging contaminants, So what’s different in your take compared to the chemical way, the advanced oxidation process way, the UV peroxide, the ozone or whatever way, which already exists in the market.

Roger Berry: efficiency. So just take electrochemical oxidation as one example, highly effective systems. And you have, different companies in Europe, North America, Asia, all piloting trying to train these systems. However, they use a lot of energy. Just running all of those anodes creating all of those electric reactions. in studies that we’ve done not ours, but UMass Amherst university system in Massachusetts, using waste pharmaceuticals as a target example showed that adding TAML catalysts our chemistry here, reduced the energy demand. by 90 percent made that system essentially 40 times more efficient. And that has the ability to take that very specialized system and niche market opportunities and make it far more affordable and far more useful. Our modeling shows that over a 10 year period, we could reduce the overall costs of that system by over half.

Antoine Walter: What is the drawback? I mean, it’s 90 percent better. You should fly off the shelf and you should just flood the market. So what is the drawback?

Roger Berry: One investor once told me that the first question she asks any water technology is, do you have another way of making money? Because it’s just the market is slow to change, slow to adopt, slow to pilot, expensive to get in. And so that’s one of the reasons why I think As an investment opportunities, there’s a benefit to SUDOC and that we have different ways of making money.

Sudoc’s Dual Business Model

Roger Berry: So there’s really two sides of our business. There’s a cleaning product side and then there’s a water treatment side and there’s some areas where these kind of merge. one example, commercial laundry. is very interesting to us. And also a space where water is very critical and a lot of water gets used in that space.

So we’re not just relevant for treating wastewater, but we’re also relevant where you have industrial applications that use a lot of heat, use a lot of water and use a lot of chemicals. essentially we’re a replacement. We’re a way of making chemistry more efficient with less heat. Less volume.

Success Stories and Market Penetration

Roger Berry: in commercial laundry, we’ve had a couple of pilots, one of them in Salt Lake City in a small hotel. these are hotels that use laundry machines that are similar to the ones you have in your home, but maybe twice as big were able to cut the cycle time by a third, which means we can cut the chemical volume by roughly 25%. And we’re able to reduce the energy by 60 percent and the water use by half. Those are remarkable numbers, and you’re asked why they’re not flying off the shelf. Well, I think they’re about to. We ran that test last month. A new talent that we found is leaving a very big chemical company to join our small chemical company because he sees the value.

He’s been in the laundry business for 30 years, and it’s those kind of validations when you’re the CEO of a small company aiming to be big that all of a sudden you see people taking bets on your company with their own career. Because they see that scalability. those kind of points of trust people put into your business are incredibly validating and exciting.

Antoine Walter: So you have two sides of the business. The water business is your neat brand and the

cleaning side of it is your dot brand, right?

You keep on pushing the two, or is it like one was first to be there? And then the other one was the evolution.

Roger Berry: Well, Dodd is first. it’s not easy, but there’s a quicker take up for the market on the cleaning product side. So we’re already selling. We’re already making revenue. And one of the things that was very important to me when we started the business 4 years ago is to make this company a customer focused business in water treatment, Because of that long pathway, it’s very easy to get into R and D cycles where the culture of the business becomes about constant iteration, right?

Constant making the mousetrap a better mousetrap, constant piloting. And so having the ability to make very effective cleaning products allowed us to get customers more than a hundred customers. And we’ve just last week launched our first distributorship. Which is the largest distributor to health and sports clubs in North America called Petra A1. And so we’re very excited now Petra A1’s sales force is selling the dot product line to it’s almost 5, 000 customers in Canada and America.

Antoine Walter: We’ll go back into the developments of the company, but you mentioned you created it four years ago.

Founding and Evolution of Sudoc

Antoine Walter: Something which was unconventional when I looked that up is that you were seven co founders. How can you agree? at seven to create a company. And is it a bit odd or is it like fully natural to be seven?

Roger Berry: I think it’s a natural evolution. The company started as an academic project, right? and really around the work of Dr. uh, Terry’s a remarkable man. I mean, just imagine if Santa Claus were from New Zealand and was brilliant at chemistry. Terry Collins and the personality has a huge heart, wants to really save the planet.

and then the chemistry that we do came together to try to put the initial ideas of what SUDOC could become they then met primarily through Pete Myers. So Pete Myers is really the convener of this group. He 25 years ago wrote the book with two co authors are stolen future. And it was really the first book after the silent spring by Rachel Carson that put together this link between our chemical enterprise and how it’s affecting our development as human beings. And a lot of that science has since been filled in. But Pete was very good friends with Hunter Lewis, who made a good amount of money in the finance business. And he was best friends with Terry Collins, who I’ve described to you as the father of our chemistry. And so Hunter came together with this founding group. And for better or worse said I’ll put a 10 million into this business on one condition. And that’s one condition is that we find a CEO who’s not an academic and not a scientist and that we all agree on. they had a search and this group of at that point six found me and we went through a number of discussions and it was just an honor for me since then, all of the founders Have been incredibly supportive. But the company kind of goes forward in its other stage. we have a management team that really operatessubject to the guidance of the board. But it’s not like we’ve got 20 cooks in the kitchen.

 It was a launch pad and those are our people who are incredibly bright and available whenever we want to call them and incredibly supportive. But I think , one of the really. Blessings of what Terry’s done, which is hard for a lot of, you know, inventors and academics is to say, here’s my invention, here’s my baby. And I’m going to trust you as a group of people to build this business. And you know, for the first six months, he kept saying, it’s your decision, Roger, but here’s a couple of ideas. And I finally said, you know, Terry, let’s make a deal. You don’t have to say anymore that it’s my decision and I’ll know it’s my decision and I’ll always want your input.

Antoine Walter: you’re kind of the 10 million guy.

Roger Berry: I guess.

Antoine Walter: cool.

Roger Berry: It’s cool.

Innovative Chemistry and Environmental Impact

Roger Berry: We have so many chemicals around us up until, , two years ago, the conventional wisdom was that we had 70, 000 chemicals in common usage. That was what everyone thought the number was. It was the official government numbers. A study from Australia showed that we were vastly underestimating the amount of chemicals that were in addition in the developing and in Asia. And the number is actually over 300, 000 chemicals, and these are impacting human life. other studies have shown that male fertility, which is just easier to measure than female fertility has declined by 50 percent over the last 50 years. So what that means in practice is that the sperm count of my son, not to be too blunt, would be half of that of my father.

That’s a generation change, and it’s why so many of your friends and colleagues and mine, but more of yours need IVF treatment just to, conceive. And so this is related to the chemical enterprise that we have around us. And so Terry really set his 40 years of work to develop a more efficient form of chemistry. And he studied the way the active side of the peroxidized enzyme works in your body. And primarily in your liver and creates a very efficient form of chemistry. So if your body practice chemistry, like we do in water treatment or in commerce, you would explode, right? Because it’s so highly inefficient.

It’s so much heat, so much volume of chemical. And so essentially by mimicking and creating casings that could make this molecule stable outside of the human body, and that’s really the source of the IP and the patent we’re able to create a far more efficient. Chemical reaction system. And that means we can do a lot more with a lot less heat and a lot less volume. And for us now, when we’re selling in commerce, that’s not our cell. We just need to sell based on you saving money. Cause you’re not using as much energy and you’re not using much other chemicals, but our mission. really is a planetary mission. And that’s really what drives us. It’s what allows us to attract top talent because they want to work for something that when you get up in the morning, it matters, right?

If you’re reducing the volume of these very highly toxic chemicals that we use in the world and bringing them in balance where it’s healthy with how we live. It really, it drives our

Antoine Walter: So you’re saying that the enzymes we have in our bodies are by definition more efficient than the chemicals, because if not, we would be exploding. But then you’re also saying that what you’re creating is even better than those enzymes because it’s 100 times smaller and 1000 times more powerful.

Roger Berry: And ultimately we So we’re mimicking the ac but around that enzyme in these really long protein it a very a la function within your bodily system, but outside we’ve essentially captured the best of what that enzyme does. And when I say we, I mean, Terry and the chemists that worked at Carnegie Mellon University and they’ve created this you know, here it is.

This is our little molecule right here. And, you know, that’s one gram. And if you were to take some tens of milligrams of this, it would allow me to create a one gallon cleaning product with 5 to 30 times less oxidant in that product. And that’s the difference between that product. being something that would burn you and being something that would be very hazardous to work with to something that’s completely benign but highly effective. we want to bring that same chemistry that we use in those cleaning products into the water treatment system where , we can extend systems like I described with electrochemical oxidation. We can pair with so many other systems, hydrogen peroxide, hypochlorite chemical and we think even ozone.

We’re starting those studies, too, extend those systems and make them more efficient.

Antoine Walter: that didn’t come out from the middle of a desert, if I understand right. I mean, your product is called new T A

L. So I’m going to assume

Roger Berry: new TAML.

Antoine Walter: there’s going to be an old , TAMLs somewhere, and then you’re making a better product. evolution of that old stuff, hence the new stuff.

Roger Berry: Yeah, so Terry’s , been working on this for over 40 years. And a previous version of the chemistry was effective, but had a one to one relationship between the effectiveness of the molecule and the lifetime of the molecule. And so the more effective version of the molecule you would make.

the faster it would destroy itself. And so it was very hard to commercialize in a way that would be long lasting enough to actually carry out a commercially viable reaction. , it ultimately needed to have another iteration of innovation. And Terry was able to break that one to one relationship and create what we call new TAMLs with these protective casings around that active site that have made it far more effective, exponentially more effective than the old version, hence

new

TAMLs.

Antoine Walter: You expressed how it can work with different type of stuff, but if I understood your communication right as well, it’s like the match made in heaven when you’re using with hydrogen peroxide.

Roger Berry: Well, that would be the most naturally occurring chemical pairing that we have, and we’re effectively using that pairing in laundry right now and a number of other benefits in the laundry space when we pair TAML new TAML with hydrogen peroxide and one of them is that we are really effective at preventing die transfer.

So, 1 of the areas that we are very effective at oxidizing or any dies. And so that means if we were mates and roommates and you put my red T shirt in the laundry with your white T shirt the red T shirt would come out red. And your white T shirt would still come out white. , and the other incredible sort of benefit of this is odors. And so the chemical reaction is very good at oxidizing the root of odor. So I got a couple of kids who are pretty active tennis players. And so we were a great test case here in the house because they bring back some pretty filthy, stinky tennis clothes. , they go off for their tournaments, they’re away for five days, they come back and we have this pretty rich petri dish and it’s far better than anything else we’ve ever seen. The clothes come out without like a masking smell, but they come out. free of odor. And so if you take a pulp and paper plant, that waste water stream is also pretty putrid in the sense of it smells and it’s noxious off gassing. And so those air areas again in water treatment where we can be highly effective.

Antoine Walter: But you said it from the very beginning that the water sector is not the easiest one to get something adopted.

Commercial Applications and Future Goals

Antoine Walter: And I get the mission aspect of it, but from a business perspective, why do you venture into water if you have such a strong value proposition in the cleaning side of the business?

Roger Berry: It really is core to the objectives andaspirations of the founders. our mission is driven by making water resources exponentially, more better that we can do. So it’s been part of why the investment has come it’s why hunter lewis invested in the company.

It’s why PureTerra invested in the company. It’s why momentum capital invested in the company. And it’s core to the mission of the business. We see these 2 things going very much hand in hand. The cleaning business, ultimately, it’s all water. Right. I mean, think about how you clean every time you clean it’s water. And every time we use water it’s the content of what’s in the water that goes into the cycles of the circular economy and what we do. We’re reducing the chemicals that go into water to begin with with need.

We’re helping extend systems to get those pollutants out of water. So it can be reused.

Antoine Walter: So what is the scope of what you’re offering? Is it like the catalyst we just saw in your little box? Like you’re a catalyst company or did you also design some of the stuff which comes around the catalyst or even the system around?

Roger Berry: On the cleaning product side, we are making our own products. They come in these small pouches, so we’re not shipping water all over the earth. instead of having a big gallon of liquids for doing your cleaning, you have a sachet of this chemical mixture, you pour it into a gallon of water on site.

And you’re spraying or using it in the cleaning application. In the commercial laundry, where were you talking about really large, commercial laundry facilities using what’s called tunnel washers. These things typically are like the size of a tennis court that we’re supplying dot as an ingredient.

So really. Think of our molecule here, but in a large kind of that is goes there and is mixed with water and then drip fed into the laundry system. And in water treatment. Yes we’re basically taking the chemical dissolving and either dripping in as a soluble or as a dry ingredient into a tertiary quaternary stage of the water treatment.

Antoine Walter: Coming back to what you’re actually selling., my question is, how do you get it

adopted? I’ll give you where I’m coming from when I’m discussing usually with membrane companies, they all come up to the market with a new membrane, a new material, a new something.

And they’re like, that is really good. And then they can prove by A plus B plus C kind of similar figures to what you say that it’s so much better in energy, so much better in removal and so forth and so on. But in order to get it adopted at some point, they need to go up the value chain. Just because somewhen down the line, they will be able to be only a membrane company, but to start and to get the ball rolling, they will need to build a module, sometimes a system, sometimes do a pilot, sometimes stuff like that.

Is it the same for you? Or did you manage to stay in your lane and say, no, we’re doing catalysts. And that’s it.

Roger Berry: It’s not the same for us. And I think it’s a business model advantage for us in that we’re a simple drop in additive. , you don’t need to change your hardware. You pretty much every treatment system is going to have a pump and a way of dosing in an additive. We don’t need to make an electrochemical oxidation system.

There’s plenty of very good ones around there. And there are companies, I mean, we have one example. I can’t name the company, but it’s a very large company where they had a wastewater stream and they were using an electrochemical oxidation system and adding our chemistry to that system brought that wastewater stream into compliance for water reuse.

And without it, Did not. Extending systems that are already very good, but extending them, making them more efficient to get over the line. So there’s nothing that we need to build or construct or have a customer build or construct to bring the chemistry into a system like that. We want to be the world’s first chemical company that you can love. if you think about it right now, if you think of all the chemical companies out there, can you name one that you really love? Like you might love an Apple brand. But I think this is a company where we can attract mission driven people because it’s making chemistry better. And it’s bringing these systems allowing water to be used where today it can’t be,

Antoine Walter: Does that mean that you have like a references of all the electrochemical installations in North America, for instance, and you would start hunting them down one by one and say, Hey, I don’t tell you to switch. But if you were to switch, you would rip those energy benefits, efficiency benefits.

And it’s a one to one replacement.

Roger Berry: we are and also to be clear, this isn’t magic, this isn’t a magic potion where it’s going to make everything for every target, you know, super, super better, but for a lot of targets it is, so there’s some places where an electro chem oxidation you know, some particular chemical formulations, pollutions that that we’re not.

Okay. Seeing those same results. So it depends on the water matrix. it’s not a magic bullet where no matter what the system and no matter what the water matrix looks like that we’re going to be a home run. So it’s a question as well of finding the right fits, but I would say it’s not a niche market either.

We are very good at a lot of things. that’s why we’re finding some of its interest both from the investor sector, but also from. Large companies that are wanting to test us in these systems

Antoine Walter: you’re very good points on my scale of ranking by saying that it’s not a silver bullet but you’re also opening me the door now to be the devil’s advocate. So it’s my time to be the devil’s advocate. You know, I used

to be. In another life,

a nose on guy working for Suez and, we were developing also applications in China and in China we had a hard time because China has a history of catalytic resonation.

So, very often we would bump into a project where we would say, oh, you have to go for advanced oxidation and our Chinese counterparts would tell us. You know what we have those locals doing catalytic ozonation and it’s so much more efficient. So at some point we looked into catalytic ozonation because we thought if they do it, we can’t be so stupid.

We have to do it as well. And so Sue has developed a catalyst. The catalyst was super efficient. It was making catalytic ozonation super cool. The only problem is that it was crazy expensive.

Yes, you were reaching super high removal rates, super high efficiencies and all the likes, but it was coming at such an expense that nobody was able to afford it. Now I’m tempted to believe that is just the downside of any catalyst, just because I don’t know better. So now tell me better and tell me that you don’t have that problem.

Roger Berry: well, we will not have that problem, but it’s about scaling, right? And so that’s why utility scale water treatment is in our sites for a 510 plus year purview, because today we would not be in the cost matrix to make utility water treatment relevant to what we’re doing. But it’s a ladder.

So what we’re doing now is we are targeting those applications where we can deliver a customer at least a 2 to 3 X ROI on the cost of buying our chemistry. And so in commercial laundry, that’s what we’re looking at. When you add up the savings in energy, chemicals and water. And then the other benefits of like the consumables, when you’re putting less stress on the system you don’t have to replace the tubes and you don’t have to replace other kind of everyday wear and tear items as much.

And so we’re getting more of those life cycle costs, but we’re looking at essentially a three to one ROI for the customer. When you’re looking at our cleaning products, we’re essentially either on par with the cost of a competitive product or 10 to 20 percent less because of our shipping benefits.

We’re not shipping water around, so we’re much easier to store and handle. it’s not a pitch of, Hey, this is a great green product, pay 20 to 50 percent more for it.It’s a pitch of this product will work. Just as well or better than what you’re using today. It’ll be the same price or less.

And by the way, you can put 5 times less chemical into your environment and still get those benefits. we are right now, as we speak, beginning to manufacture with a contract manufacturing organization. In our world, it’s all about the vessel size. So, can you manufacture in a 1000 liter vessel, a 2000 liter vessel, an 8000 liter vessel, those are typically the scale of commercial.

And the answer is we can, and we are. so we’re now creating thatmany kilogram. production schedule that will lead up to a ton production schedule, which will lead up to a multi ton production schedule. When we’re starting to manufacture in those many tons area, that is when our cost per kilogram is going to come into a zone that will make utility scale water treatment a viable. Market for us, but we’re very consciously targeting these industrial markets, commercial laundry electrochemical oxidation systems, because the impact that we have is still generating that 3 plus ROI, even at the cost point where we are today.

Antoine Walter: I’m super glad you added that at the end, because if not, I would have questioned why you would even think of going to the water utility market. If Gradient’s path has proven something is that Targeting only the industrial side is probably the best way to go at it. If you’re bringing a new water tech to market, and if you want to really waste your life because the impact is great, but it will take your life, then you go to the water utility side of the business.

So is it like your aspirational goal to one day be at the place that you could also go to utilities and it’s part of the mission Or can you be pragmatic and business centered and say, by the way, our biggest added value is on the industrial side. Why would we even venture on the municipal side?

Roger Berry: So there was a guy who I really like who was one of the top marketing guys from Nike, and then he went on to Lululemon and a number of other businesses. one of his points of call, he was working at Seventh Generation, and they made it a goal the goal was for Target to call them. they set themselves their own kind of objective, which is we’re not going to knock on targets door. We’re going to become so wanted that targets going to be banging on our door and they did it. so, yeah, we’re talking to utilities and we’re going to all these conferences, but I think we want to create so many good use cases in the industrial sector and in the cleaning product sector and laundry and all these other areas where it’s almost now becoming where the big giants will come knock on our door. If that happens, we know we’re being successful. We want to get sales because we have proven commercial benefits in the market. not just that we went to the right conference.

Business Model and Sales Strategy

Antoine Walter: So what’s your approach to sales? Is it a per kilogram per box per sachet kind of sales, or do you have a recurring revenue? Like people would get a registration and then you deliver regularly. Is it an espresso system? What’s your business model?

Roger Berry: We’re selling chemicals and chemical products. You buy a physical product from us and in the early stages where we’re piloting or testing with people, they’re essentially paying us for the catalyst, but also for our R and D time to be working with them to develop an application.

Antoine Walter: Does that mean that there is an off the shelf type of business and there’s also a custom type of business where you would tailor the catalyst to be really suited to a special application.

Roger Berry: so for example, we’re working with a second tier, but very large consumer cleaning products company in Europe, and they want to use our product in dishwashing, for example, because we could replace a environmentally not liked ingredient with our ingredient. Now, in this particular case, there’s more science to be done. There’s some surface chemistry applications that we need to work through. And so that work is being done right now at Carnegie Mellon university and also within SUDOC. And so that’s an example of an area where. We have a lot of evidence that this should work, but there’s more chemistry to be done, and we invest some money to do that in the water treatment world. We haven’t seen too many examples where there’s more chemistry to be done, but we do have an amazing R and D team run by PhD Matt Mills, and I think you’ve met Brady Steinbeck, who runs all of our neat platform. So essentially, the two of them are an incredible duo. To engage with industrial white wastewater treatment Brady on the application side and Matt really on the fundamental science side.

Antoine Walter: So there’s another elephant in the room, which I need to address, which is you mentioned micropollutants, emerging contaminants, you’re a us based company. US is known to be the first mover when it comes to PFAS regulations. And PFAS is nowhere to be found on your websites, which I found on one end. pretty reassuring because that means you’re not simply taking all the buzzwords because if you would, that would be the number one buzzword.

But number two, I’m asking myself, you know, electrochemical is known to be something which targets PFAS or can target PFAS. So is that somewhere on your roadmap? Or you say, no, not really what we’re looking for.

Roger Berry: 2 comments on PFAS. the 1st comment is that we do not yet have evidence that we help electrochemical oxidation systems directly. So the way that we may be benefiting these electrochemical oxidation systems is by taking the electrons from the anode.

Catalyst and PFAS Treatment

Roger Berry: And so our catalyst then expands the field of attack and allows us to get more of the pollutants in the waste stream. around the anode. But in that case, it’s our chemistry that would have to be effective on the target. And we’ve not found our chemistry to be effective directly on those incredibly strong PFAS bonds.

So that’s just one of those areas where this isn’t a magic bullet. It has to be the right target for the right chemistry. Now, that said, those electrochemical companies going after PFAS are doing tests with us because they see a benefit in using potentially our chemistry to get other things in the matrix so that you don’t use the expensive part of the system on the other parts of the water matrix and allow the system to focus on PFAS.

So we may be relevant to the PFAS treatment train even though right now we don’t see ourselves to be as relevant to PFAS.

The Prevalence and Impact of PFAS

Roger Berry: I’m All for us making every effort we can to get PFS out of the environment. PFS is not good. PFS is incredibly prevalent. We were renovating our house a few months ago, and the company coming in to do the shower doors, was trying to sell me this great, nonstick surface coating that would, stop the water from beading. And I said, hey, can you? Check if this has anything with a PF in it, either PFAS or PFOA, guys like I’ve never heard of it, calls me back the next day and he says, nah, you don’t want this. So people are still selling it. It’s everywhere.

Broader Water Treatment Issues

Roger Berry: the complaint I have is not that we shouldn’t be going after PFAS, it’s that PFAS is overwhelming the dialogue about water treatment and pollutants. there are so many other things that we should be also. talking about and getting hormone disrupting chemicals, endocrine disrupting chemicals in our waters. we have effective ways of going after them. PFAS is a very important part of the conversation, but I just want to say it really shouldn’t be the only part of the conversation.

Endocrine Disruptors and Water Pollution

Antoine Walter: I agree with you interestingly, your example of endocrine disruption is the parallel to the one that usually use.

I didn’t know the story about the change in fertility in men. I knew the stats about the change of . The age of the first periods for little girls, because it used to be women and now it’s girls because within one century, the age of the first period went down from 17 and something years to 12 and something years. I know we’re a species which is able to evolve over time, but not that fast and not within one century. It’s not possible, not humanly possible without an external environment. Help and help is probably not the right word where I’m heading with that is that usually the counter argument I received to that is, yeah, you’re right.

The stats exist and are probably true, but the contribution of water to that is probably low, meaning that air pollution does much more food pollution does much more to which I say, yeah, but okay, if you think about it, Tell me that it means that you also believe that water has a role and if it has a role, let’s look at that role.

How do you react to that objection to say, is it worth it? Is it worth running after those antibiotic resistance? Because yeah, people are still taking the antibiotics themselves. So they are building the resistance without it being in the water.

Roger Berry: the environmental context. I think it’s usually an industrial defense. To sort of try to isolate a problem and say let’s, only think of it here. we are putting chemicals all around us and incredibly large volumes and the antibiotics and the personal care products, , all of these are containing very, disruptive endocrine disrupting chemicals.

I don’t know if you know this, but Pete Myers is the scientist who coined the term endocrine disruption. So this term that we use is actually at the heart of what the mission of our business is. And so I think water plays a huge role.

The Role of Water in Society

Roger Berry: Water is essentially a mirror of our society. So there are studies of Lake Mead where literally, depending on what convention comes into Las Vegas, it shows up in the water system.

So the psychiatrists come in and all of a sudden you see some of these psychiatric meds in the water system. big gambling convention comes in all of a sudden, cocaine and other class one drugs end up in the water system. You can’t tell me that, treating our water and making sure our water is safe.

These are the same waters we’re going to drink later in the same year. To me, it’s just foolhardy to not say that, that water isn’t part of the issue of how these chemicals are impacting our own development.

Antoine Walter: you say makes objectively a ton of sense.

NABC Methodology and Water Sector Challenges

Antoine Walter: I was just heading to something you said to me before we recorded, which is you were talking to me about that N A B C methodology. So need approach benefit costs and then positioning yourself towards competition. And in that acronym, the first part is need.

And that’s where I have my question, my doubt, because a big. section of the trouble we have in the water sector is that the need is not clear. And I think that’s also something which I guess might resonate with you. We take water for granted and hence the need to get it clean doesn’t really exist because I’m opening my faucet and I’m getting water.

We also take the way to treat water for granted and so we don’t need To change that unless there’s a crisis. And then that goes to the theory of our good friend, Paul, the Cullen who says whenever there’s a crisis, then it moves, but you need that crisis to happen. is there a way around to make people realize that the crisis is there, but without all the negative consequences of the crisis,

Roger Berry: The European Union has put in its water directive the requirement that member states come up with plans to remove waste pharmaceuticals and personal care chemicals from our water systems. Is it happening at scale yet? No.

Antoine Walter: you have to spend time, you know, they voted that in the year, 2000, we’re only in 2024. So what can

you do in 24 years? Come on

Roger Berry: Right.

Commercial Applications and Future Plans

Roger Berry: Well, and that’s why we talk about these issues, but our initial use cases are about very practical commercial use cases where our chemistry can simply extend systems. So it’s, we have a very long view and this SUDOC is meant to be a company. My dream is to still be running this company, you know, years and years from now, because of the number of applications that we have in work and we be impactful. But that’s why we’re focused in the short term on commercial applications where we are very fundamentally reducing energy, reducing costs, reducing system costs and extending treatment where that’s happening today. What we need to do with our water systems now on the commercial side, and you know, this extremely well is water is becoming a fundamental commercial decision about where to cite a business, you know, the company I was referencing in in the United States where they had to come into compliance, it’s about the need to actually have water to use in their business because of the lack of water in India.

Right now, there’s a lot of movement around treating wastewater streams, not for environmental good earth, good planet benefits, but be simply because there’s not enough water to run the business. So if you’re not creating water reuse, the business isn’t viable. And so in the medium term, that’s where the need is imminent, right?

Is pressing. But I certainly hope from a regulatory point of view that they create that crisis around treating these endocrine disrupting chemicals Because we’re using these other use cases that SUDOC is around to be an answer to that crisis when that happens, whether it’s 2 years or 10 years from now. But I also think, Antoine, your generation and the younger generations know more than our generations did. I certainly was, before getting involved in this company, blind to what was going on. chemicals mean to our life. But I think your generation and the younger generations are becoming far more conscious of what this is. And I do hope that you don’t stand for it. You know, the idea if we were to run a blood test on you, do you know how many chemicals we would find today?

Antoine Walter: too much, I guess.

Roger Berry: About 600. We would find probably at least a handful of chemicals in your system today that have been banned for more than 10 years. We would certainly find traces of PFAS, right? We are carrying this stuff with us. I think we just didn’t know. I certainly know now my eyes are open, but I think more and more your generation and younger generations are aware and are going to vote that way.

Antoine Walter: I agree with you, which is the reason why I have to contradict you. Because that’s the objection which I’m hearing as well. Which is to say, yes, those emerging contaminants are not emerging, they are around for a while, but before we could not detect them. And so now we can detect them. So as we can detect them, we see there’s a problem.

I had the discussion with Christopher Gasson from GWI, and he was saying, you know, if PFAS is in 98 percent of the people’s body, then how dangerous can it be? And. When I said that , to Julie Blissman from a clarity she said, yeah, we have all the proof to say it’s carcinogenic and whatever you want.

So she explained all that, but still, I have to say to Christopher’s points that it’s true that if I have 600 chemicals in my body, then.

They’re probably not that fooled, or I would be probably by now. It’s also because we can measure more stuff that we get afraid of more and more stuff and had that conversation, not to name drop everybody, but with Amanda Sikora from Vapor, and she was saying that one of the reason why people would not want to get AI to inspect their pipes is that if AI inspect their pipes, they it will detect more defects.

And they’re not so much interested in all the defects, which exists. Because they’d rather not know, because ignorance is bliss.

Roger Berry: It’s a slow change problem, right? And it’s very hard for people to react to slow change, right? So the volume of chemicals and bad chemicals that we have in our body is not a good thing. But it doesn’t mean necessarily that it will kill you tomorrow, right? But what we do know is that it will have negative impacts on a significant percentage of us some period over time. And that’s a bad trend, right? We don’t want that trend. But then, because it’s not going to kill you tomorrow, it’s not pressing and it’s not immediate and it’s not personal. So, yeah, we very sadly learned to live with this representation of all of this chemical enterprise in our systems.

But I do think, the statistic I gave you, it’s a shocking one. Read Dr. Shana Swan’s book called Countdown that came out two years ago. and you mentioned on the male side, we believe it’s analogous for women. It’s just easier to measure in men, the 50 percent decline in fertility.

In 50 years and that it continues on that downward trend. What are we doing? This is a challenge to our

very existence.

Antoine Walter: exogenic. I mean, I also read studies which says that the problem is the diapers. Before the diapers were not that efficient. And there’s a reason why the male genitalia is outsized because the male genitalia doesn’t like to be too warm and too hot. And if you put diapers, which are too tight

well, that’s also part of the problem.

Roger Berry: Oh, there’s many aspects of the problem. Stress is another aspect to the problem. if you just look at stress in the male population. You would think that back problems would occur at the oldest age, right? And no, they don’t. The majority of back surgeries happen in the mid to mid forties to mid fifties, and it’s related to stress, you could extrapolate that example to fertility and other things. what we do know and it would cost billions of dollars to research this to a scientific precision, but we do know that chemicals endocrine disrupting chemicals interfere with the hormones that are related to fertility. we know that the amount of those chemicals That interfere have been increasing exponentially, and we do know that fertility is declining. to say that there’s not a relationship between the chemical enterprise and our fertility is foolhardy to say that the only relationship with fertility decline as chemicals is also foolhardy It’s a matrix of issues But I can promise you that endocrine disrupting chemicals are front and center of the problem

Antoine Walter: I think you made the perfect analogy with the slow change, I’m French, open secret, and we have that reputation to eat frogs. Okay. If you cook frogs, you put them in water and you bring that water always a bit warmer until The frog can’t move anymore. And yeah, it dies that way, but the frog is in the water the entire time and never wants to escape.

So, so it’s a bit the story we have here with the different type of metaphor. And with that ramble, I want to bring you back on track because you said you’re building something for the future. And one part of what you’re building is what we discussed in the very beginning, which is that you’re raising money and you’re just screwing up.

Raising Funds and Strategic Partnerships

Antoine Walter: Closed a 10 million fundraise. And what’s interesting with your path is that you’ve been raising 6 million from momentum capital. And if I’m right,

you have been working with momentum capital. So is it a bit of left pocket, right pocket discussing together? Are you have an insider advantage when you have the discussion with them or how is it to be on the other side of the table?

Roger Berry: have a very much an insider advantage and I’ll take those advantages every time we can. This was a really nice round for us for a couple of reasons. So one, Momentum Capital coming in is someone I’ve worked with before. We turned around a very good project. Difficult sustainable energy business in the Netherlands, in Europe years and years ago.

And so Martijn van Reenen and I, and other members of the team, we were in very tough situations where we had to make, sometimes ethical and business decisions. And we saw how each other behaved and operated. And we came away with a tremendous amount of respect for each other in in the business world.

going through those trenches together. And so, them coming into our new business here brings partners who I’ve worked with before into this business, who I think are going to make this business better. So that was really edifying. And then secondly PureTerra, who we didn’t know.

at all before got to know us. They are backed by the European investment bank, the IP. So they have the imprimatur of the European union behind them. They are focused solely on water and their due diligence is probably detailed as anything I’ve ever seen before. And the amount of scrutiny that they gave us around our chemistry, our business model, our team and our personnel, without having known us before. Again, was edifying because they came to the same decision that this team and this company and this chemistry was investable and they think incredibly scalable. just got better. We added two board members and Job Vanshelvin and Martine van Reynon. And we had our first board meeting yesterday and it’s just great to see, four years ago, this company was a white sheet of paper and then it was a white sheet of paper and me and and, you know, all the founders behind and now it’s a train that’s gathering steam and bringing on the right people, both as employees and as board members. And so it’s you know, it’s an incredible

Antoine Walter: How many people do work for Sudoc today?

Roger Berry: Full time equivalents would be 12 about to be 14

Antoine Walter: And what will you be using the 10 millions for? Hiring more people?

Roger Berry: no, essentially giving extending time. , we’ve had to build so much in the last 4 years of production process, a lab and R and D capability, a product definition, a product development team and now a water treatment focus. And so we really want the next 2 to 3 years to establish. The kinds of revenue that would allow us to raise a round that really takes us into being a global business. So I think in the next three years, it’s all about moving from startup phase to scaling phase. And then in three years from now, it’s really about developing this business as a corporation.

Antoine Walter: you be producing the catalyst in house or do you have your formula and somebody is producing for you?

Roger Berry: We’ve just been running our first production run with a contract manufacturing organization. That’s very important because that takes us from producing in 5 to 20 liter vessels to producing in 100 to 1, 000, 2, 000 liter vessels and that’s going very

Antoine Walter: Where I’m heading with that question, because you mentioned that is if you have like a midterm or long term plan to have your own production, then you probably want to build your business around that location. If on the opposite, you want to be the one providing the formula and then you have your partners, which are building and producing a bit everywhere, then you probably want to gain market traction in all that.

different geographies at once, and the faster, the better. So if I understand you right, your strategy is the latter.

Roger Berry: So what’s a big advantage for us if we were to launch SUDOC 20 years ago, it’d be a very different proposition and you’d probably need 40 million to get where we are today. And that’s because in the last 20, 30 years, the pharmaceutical industry has developed a whole third party manufacturing system.

 this infrastructure didn’t exist 30, 40 years ago, but now all over the world, most pharmaceutical companies don’t actually make their own. pharmaceuticals, They do the R and D and they do the marketing to the customer. But the actual production is done largely third party.

So we have the benefit of sitting on top of all of that infrastructure that’s been developed. Now, we always will have an internal production capability to develop the synthetic process as we develop new variants of this catalytic system. So we will have our own production. But at least the way we assume it right now is we can benefit from the scaling of third party manufacturing in order to create the cost benefits that we need to go to market.

Antoine Walter: I have usually a different way to raise that question, but I feel like I can be a bad guy and raising it that way for you. And I’m sorry about that. Do

you have any chance of building that company to be Big and bold before a camera, an Ecolab or whoever snaps you and takes you as the cool chemical free alternative to whatever they are doing today.

Roger Berry: I think so. Yeah. I think we can become a very large chemical producer. Some of those companies that you mentioned could be very interesting distribution channels for us. We don’t have to necessarily develop our own distribution channels to be the chemical company we want to be. And so I think our focus right now is on the scientific proof and commercialization of these applications. And then we’ll wait and see in terms of how much infrastructure around production and distribution that we have to create ourselves or that we can leverage other

Antoine Walter: But when you’re raising that round of 10 million, which ends up being with two venture capital players, you don’t have at any point of time, a conversation with telling you, you know, I’m taking 5 percent today because down the line, I’m going to take 80.

Roger Berry: we haven’t sought that conversation out because we know We would like to develop our own leverage so that when those conversations happen like I said with that example of my friend, Duke Stump, who is at Seventh Generation we want to have them knocking on our door.

Antoine Walter: When interviewed Fadja Mushtaq from Oxide, arguably another type of catalyst company, she explained how some of her employees, so some of the latest people she Took on board were part of companies, which became unicorns in biotech. And that the fact that they were now jumping to Oxyle was a sign that they were on the path to build that.

And that’s, what you said about your latest recruit, which is coming from a big player coming to you because he or she says that there is that broad, not only mission, but also path to scale at SUDOC. What brings you confidence that’s going to happen in the next 10 years?

Roger Berry: I honestly feel that as a business, we really believe in ourselves. We believe we have a chemistry that is fundamentally different from other chemistries, and we’ve seen it. in ways that impact people very directly. So, you know, it’s not huge scale yet, but in a smaller scale, when you sell our products to these mold remediator companies, and I’ve as a CEO, To understand what the business is like.

I got into a crawl space with our partner and a crawl space is about this high. And so you’re in there and you’ve got these beams and there’s mold all over the beams and you’re wearing a respirator and you’re spraying these chemicals. In order to get through these spaces you’re reaching and your skin becomes exposed somehow, right?

Unless you’re like an astronaut and you know, the jobs that these guys do are just damn nasty. , people who are doing the kind of the real difficult work, in the country and why so many of them are dissatisfied because, , life is not easy and the job is not easy. And then You bring this product into that system. And, you know, one of the guys is like, I’m, I no longer have to deal with chemical brands, right? It’s done and it really is impactful. And then you look at the larger scale applications and, , it’s not my words, but this employee who’s joining us, he says, there has not been an innovation in laundry in the last 30 years that he’s been working in this industry that. Even approaches what he sees that we can do there has been no, there’s been nothing. That’s a game changer. There was a line in the industry. A guy was telling me because I was calling a reference. He says, well, there’s a line in this industry where it’s not the chemicals. It’s your, it’s the rep because everyone’s got the same chemicals. And I was able to, when he said that, I was like, actually, not anymore. Not everyone’s got the same chemicals because we have something fundamentally different. And so, you know, Stefan is joining the business because for him, he’s been in this industry for 30 years. He’s been grinding it out. He’s in his sixties now. And for him, This can be a crowning achievement for his career in an industry that hasn’t had change at all. So when you see those things, it’s not just what I tell them, but when you have that conversation and you look at the signs together and you see those kinds of results I don’t have to tell them a story. They’re creating the story and it’s building the company.

Antoine Walter: If I bring you back to the Roger from four years ago. You get approached by that team to be one of the co founder and to lead the team of SUDOC. You have your own history. You’ve been working with Nelson Mandela. You’ve been working on this North Ireland peace treaty and stuff like that. So you’ve done things which belong to history books.

And someone comes and say, I have a cool idea to do a chemical, which can maybe change laundry. I’m painting it negatively on purpose, but what’s the driver?

Personal Motivation and Company Vision

Antoine Walter: What is that single thing that makes you believe is the right thing to do for you to take that plunge, to go down that route. And in retrospect, four years later, were you right about that?

Roger Berry: ,

Antoine, , I’ll tell you something personal. It was quite a moment in time for me. In 2020, as COVID was becoming a story, on January 22nd, I had a pulmonary embolism after taking a very nasty air flight. And that’s when you have a blood clot that breaks off and it either, if it breaks off big, it gives you a heart attack and you die. If it breaks off small, it goes through your heart and deposits in your lungs. if you don’t, get to the hospital within 24 to 36 hours. You die. so there’s a 30 percent mortality rate. thankfully for my wife and my sister in law insisting that when I had this pain that we ran there. So, so I lived and Two months later, the conversation with SUDOC came to my doorstep. when I heard about what this could do, I spent the whole weekend. I put together this slide deck and I dissected what this business could be from every angle, from a regulatory angle, from the marketing angle, from, cleaning products versus water treatment. Worked on it the whole weekend because I was so motivated about what the promise of this chemistry would be without having necessarily the validation of it yet. when we had our second interviewIt was supposed to be a six week process and they cut it short. at that point, COVID is coming in and my lungs are compromised and we’re all working from home this opportunity lands in my lap. it’s been the greatest thing ever. I’ve been working for 20 plus years, both on the investor side and on the business side of Trying to turn around companies. this is the first time since 30 years ago when I did start my own company, but at a very small scale where we’ve been given this IP and really a white sheet of paper. anything that’s screwed up in this company is my fault. Because it started there and anything that’s good in this company is because I got the right people to join the mission and I have absolutely zero regrets about that.

I’m so proud of every single employee that we have, and I know they could make more money elsewhere. Maybe not in stock, you know, they have to have faith in the stock options they have are going to take them somewhere, but every single person working in our company could make a higher salary somewhere else. And they’re here because they believe in what we’re doing. it’s been the greatest job of my life.

Antoine Walter: I would be tempted to ask so much more, but that is so much of a powerful conclusion to that deep dive. I don’t want to harm the moment by going into something else. So thanks a lot for everything you shared in that deep dive.

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Rapid fire questions:

Antoine Walter: To round it off, I have a list of rapid fire question. And if that’s for you, I would switch

to

that.

Roger Berry: Yeah, absolutely.

It’s time for the Rapid Fire Questions!

Antoine Walter: what is the toughest challenge in your opinion for a water tech startup?

Roger Berry: Survival.

Antoine Walter: What would be your best single piece of advice for the founders and managers of the about 1000 early stage water startups?

Roger Berry: Focus on an unmet customer need and not the technology you have,

Antoine Walter: What’s the drop of knowledge you wish more investors knew about the water sector?

Roger Berry: . That water is climate change. 70 percent of the earth is water. If you want to affect climate change, you better address water,

Antoine Walter: What was your most unexpected partnership and what did it bring you?

Roger Berry: momentum capital and a best friend.

Antoine Walter: your first encounter with them, not the second.

Roger Berry: Both

Antoine Walter: Super short, profitability or growth?

Roger Berry: growth,

Antoine Walter: What’s the next profile you’ll hire?

Roger Berry: An expert in with 30 years of laundry experience

Antoine Walter: When you hire, sector experience or startup experience?

Roger Berry: sector

Antoine Walter: Opening new markets or doubling down on the current ones? So no third brand coming around the corner, which would be the continuation of what you did.

Roger Berry: We’re focused. We try to

Antoine Walter: What is that tool that nobody speaks about but you couldn’t live without?

Roger Berry: Feedback.

Antoine Walter: What’s the single piece of insight your ideal customer profile needs to hear right now?

Roger Berry: Chemistry can be better.

Antoine Walter: What are you desperately needing and want to raise an open call for right now?

Who’s the goat in tennis?

Roger Berry: Roger Federer.

Antoine Walter: Oh shit I was Hoping to argue with you, but we agree that it’s okay.

Roger Berry: Although Nadal and Federer, my wife is from Spain, so I might might have to change. I love them both, but do you play tennis?

Antoine Walter: not to the same level than you do, but basically speaking, I have a friend, we are playing tennis together. Like we, we play for five hours because we’re so bad that a single match always takes five hours, but we’re having a blast, but if we play against anybody else, we lose,

but we’re having a blast.

What can and should I do for you?

Roger Berry: Tell our story. Tell everyone you know that we’re worth talking to.

Antoine Walter: I guess they should be convinced by now, but Where should I redirect them to keep contact with you?

Roger Berry: Rberry at sudoc. com, S U D O C

Roger Berry: com,

Antoine Walter: Links will be in the show notes. Check them out. It’s up to you. You decided to share your email address. If you get spam, I’m not guilty.

Roger it was a pleasure to have that conversation with you. I hope to have a sequel with you when you hit the next milestone or when you raise your next round of 100 million or whatever comes first, thanks for having me.

Sharing your path and talk to you soon.

Roger Berry: It’s been a blast. Thanks, Antoine.

Other Episodes:

FREDsense: Revolutionizing Water Quality Monitoring with Biosensor Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 7 May 2025

Swirltex: Revolutionizing Wastewater Treatment with Bubbly Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 30 April 2025

Blue Foot Membranes: The Next Evolution in Water Filtration

By Antoine Walter | 16 April 2025

Echo River Capital: Pioneering the Future of Water Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 3 April 2025

1001 Fontaines: Engineering Sustainable Water Access Through Social Entrepreneurship

By Antoine Walter | 22 March 2025

Amazon’s Water Footprint: Tech Giant’s Quest for Water Sustainability

By Antoine Walter | 19 March 2025

Turing: The AI Revolution Quenching the Water Industry’s Thirst for Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 26 February 2025

Altillion: Pioneering Digital Intelligence for Water Asset Management

By Antoine Walter | 6 February 2025

Flocean: Pioneering Ocean-Based Water Solutions

By Antoine Walter | 15 January 2025

Botanical Water Technologies: Harvesting Liquid Gold from Plants

By Antoine Walter | 4 December 2024

The post How SUDOC Manufactures a 100x Smaller and 1000x More Powerful Catalyst appeared first on (don't) Waste Water.

That’s the kind of trouble, VAPAR aims to fight, by leveraging the power of Machine Learning and sound commitment! How? Let’s find out:

with Amanda Siqueira – Co-Founder & CEO of VAPAR

Resources:

VAPAR’s website

Peter Thiel’s Zero to One

Everyone Hates Marketers on Jobs to be Done

David Lloyd Owen’s appearance on the podcast

is on Linkedin

Antoine Walter on LinkedIn

Full Video:

Introducing: VAPAR

Until recently, inspecting these pipes was a labor-intensive, time-consuming task often left until a problem was impossible to ignore. Enter VAPAR, a game-changer in the field of underground pipe inspections. Leveraging AI technology, VAPAR makes inspecting these pipes not only seamless but smarter. Let’s dig into how.

The Problem with Traditional Pipe Inspections

Picture this: an engineer sitting for eight hours a day, glued to footage of dark, murky underground pipes. They’re meticulously scanning for cracks, blockages, or any signs of trouble. Now imagine this process being repeated across thousands of miles of pipes—tedious, error-prone, and expensive. Manual inspections require operators to watch the same footage multiple times, increasing the likelihood of missed defects and inconsistent results. Moreover, the whole ordeal is incredibly costly, with some inspections costing between $5 to $10 per meter, while repairs can skyrocket to $1,000 per meter or more if damage is found​.

But the real kicker? Even with all this effort, most utilities still operate reactively, waiting for customers to report issues before inspecting their infrastructure. This outdated method doesn’t just waste money; it risks lives and property by allowing small problems to become big ones.

Enter VAPAR: The AI-Powered Solution

VAPAR is turning this process on its head by automating pipe inspections with artificial intelligence. Amanda Siqueira, co-founder of VAPAR, knows the pain of manual inspection all too well, having once spent her days watching sewer footage at Sydney Water. Along with her co-founder, Michelle Aguilar, she decided it was high time to take a more proactive approach to pipe management.

With VAPAR’s AI, the inspection process has evolved from hours or days of footage review to mere minutes. VAPAR’s AI-powered platform takes raw footage from cameras inserted into underground pipes and instantly identifies potential defects like cracks, root intrusions, or blockages. Instead of relying on multiple manual reviews to spot these issues, the AI does it in one go, with greater accuracy and consistency​​.

From Weeks to Minutes: A Seamless Transition

Think about it: a process that once took weeks or even months now gets done in minutes. VAPAR’s platform has automated the entire inspection workflow, from uploading footage to identifying issues and even prioritizing which defects need immediate attention. It’s like having a super-efficient assistant who never gets tired or distracted and doesn’t charge overtime.

The speed and efficiency are not just convenient—they’re cost-effective. The AI detects more defects than human eyes typically would, without the fatigue that comes from staring at footage for hours on end. This means more problems are caught earlier, and fewer expensive surprises crop up down the road. By automating defect identification, VAPAR helps utilities cut inspection costs by up to 90%​​.

AI is a Partner, not a Replacement

You might think that with such high-tech automation, VAPAR’s AI would replace human inspectors entirely, but that’s not the case. VAPAR views its AI as a “co-pilot,” working alongside human operators to make their jobs easier, not redundant. While the AI takes care of the grunt work—scanning footage and flagging potential issues—it still leaves final decisions to experienced engineers. This partnership approach ensures that the AI’s findings are always reviewed and validated by a human, adding an extra layer of quality control.

VAPAR also emphasizes transparency. The AI isn’t a mysterious black box; it provides clear, interpretable results that engineers can understand and verify. In practice, this collaborative model means that even though the AI flags more defects, utilities don’t need to panic. They can apply their own risk assessments to decide which issues need immediate action and which can wait​.

Real-World Success: The Northumbrian Water Case Study

One of VAPAR’s recent success stories involves Northumbrian Water, a utility company in the UK. Traditionally, Northumbrian Water operated a reactive CCTV program—only inspecting pipes when a customer complaint was lodged. But with VAPAR’s AI, they were able to streamline their inspection process significantly. Footage was uploaded directly to VAPAR’s platform, where the AI analyzed it for defects. Northumbrian Water’s technical specialists then reviewed the AI’s findings, turning what was once a highly subjective and manual process into a quick, data-driven decision-making exercise.

The result? Not only did this save time, but it also aligned maintenance activities more closely with asset health, ensuring that repairs were targeted where they were needed most, and preventing unnecessary work. This has allowed Northumbrian Water to prioritize their investments better and reduce the risk of catastrophic failures​​.

VAPAR’s AI is Proactive, Not Reactive

So, what’s the big deal about VAPAR’s AI-powered approach? It all comes down to being proactive rather than reactive. Most utilities are caught in a vicious cycle of responding to problems only after they arise, wasting precious time and resources. VAPAR flips the script by using data to predict where issues are likely to occur, helping utilities to get ahead of problems before they escalate.

By transforming inspection data into actionable insights, VAPAR enables utilities to plan their investments more strategically, ensuring money is spent where it matters most. In an industry where budgets are tight and stakes are high, this kind of efficiency isn’t just a luxury—it’s a necessity​​.

A Broader Vision: Beyond Pipes

But VAPAR isn’t stopping at just underground pipes. Their vision is broader—they’re eyeing all public assets that require regular inspection and maintenance. From roads to bridges to water treatment facilities, the potential applications for their AI technology are vast. As infrastructure ages globally, the need for smarter, more efficient management solutions like VAPAR’s will only grow​.

On the Horizon

By combining deep learning with real-world expertise, VAPAR is reshaping how we think about infrastructure management. Their AI-powered platform offers a seamless, efficient, and proactive approach to underground pipe inspections, reducing costs and preventing failures before they happen. And while they might be starting with pipes, their ambitions hint at a future where the same smart, streamlined approach could be applied to all kinds of public assets.

In a world where we expect everything to be instant and effortless, isn’t it about time our infrastructure inspections caught up?

My Full Conversation with Amanda Siqueira on VAPAR

These are computer-generated, so expect some typos

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Antoine Walter: Hi, Amanda, welcome to the show.

Amanda Siqueira Legacy: Hey, Angela. Andthanks for having me. I’m really excited to be

here.

Antoine Walter: It’s been a while. I had an Australian series at some point with a lot of guests from down under. And it’s always a pleasure to think that, you know, we have all those thousands of kilometers who set us apart. And on your website, actually, there’s a big number Featuring those millions of kilometers because you’re saying that you’re helping 6 million feet of pipes. to be managed. And I’m just wondering what is the status quo you’re replacing?

How would their life be if VAPAR wasn’t to exist?

The Problem with Manual Pipe Inspections

Amanda Siqueira: We’re expanding our footprint, which we’re very excited about. So, last year we did over 6 million feet of inspection footage and helped with the investment planning of that. Without. VAPAR, that whole process would have been painfully manual. people would have had to, much like myself when I was an engineering intern, gosh, now many years ago watching eight hours a day of footage and just writing down whenever I saw anything weird inspection footage of an underground pipe.

All of that process is now completely automated in our platform using deep learning to identify defects and things like that. So tens of process that could be, weeks, sometimes months with some of our clients into a couple of minutes. Very customizable, very easy for them to come to a decision as to where they

spend

their money.

How VAPAR Automates Pipe Inspections

Amanda Siqueira: So that’s footage of wastewater and stormwater lines, Yes, exactly. So they’ll put cameras inside sewer pipes and stormwater pipes just to try and find out, is there any blockages? Are there any breaks? Trying to get him ahead of the problem so that, you know, people don’t just fall into a sinkhole or have sewage come up in their basement.

So they’ll try and put these cameras in and try and find the issues. But all of that footage.

every foot, every meter has to be watched manually. Very often, more than once. So because the process is manual, it’s error prone, , if you watch it, I’m not gonna believe you, or if I watch it, you’re not gonna believe me.

So we’ll watch it twice which is insane. Given that over , a billion meters is inspected every

year.

Yeah.

Antoine Walter: go into who’s your customer their life, how they integrate with what you do and what you exactly do. But before that if I try to boil it down to what’s their unique value they’re getting from you, because I could see it as. Time saver as a money saver on the long run, on the short run, what is like this absolute spice where they realize that with VAPAR there’s this.

Amanda Siqueira: basically Our whole company and our, all our product is focused at doing is fixing pipes before they fail. So most of the world runs their pipe inspection and management process reactively, unfortunately. They’ll wait until a customer rings up and tell them that there’s something in their front yard or in their basement and then they’ll put a camera in.

With our product, we’re basically helping them use that data to try and run a more proactive program by helping them say, well, this is the condition of your asset. These are the highest risk assets. You should go target investment here. And the next time you either don’t or do need to come back to this spot.

B

Understanding the Impact of Pipe Failures

Antoine Walter: ut how bad is it if it breaks? Because on the waterline, I get it. It breaks, you have a main damage, probably the roads gets damaged. I saw some statistics from Canada. a while ago, but they should pertain true, which is about count 1 million of impact for one break on the main waterline, but you are on the sewer sides and on the stormwater side.

So is it similar impact we’re discussing here? Or what’s the harm

Amanda Siqueira: gravity networks, like stormwater and sewer, sometimes thought of as the poor cousins of drinking water. They fall under gravity. They’re not pressurized like drinking water. And the consequence of failure is slightly different.

some might say a little bit lower because it’s not related toa human right. The way that drinking water is but the consequence of failure sometimes can be catastrophic. especially when you get your large trunk mains the condition of that is super important.

If they fail you could get large sinkholes. So there are many instances across the world where sinkholes form and people Unfortunately driving to them or all the things that, you know, consume houses even but there’s also the environmental impact of that. So not even, you know, human health and public health reasons, but even just environmental impact and sewage in the waterways you only have to do a quick Google of the UK public media at the moment to see how that’s being reflected and played out at the moment.

Antoine Walter: just before we go into the deep dive, I have a sanity check to do, which is you’re making. CCTV inspection better because you’re removing the human aspects of it. Like the human subjectivity, it becomes objective parameters checked by AI. I get that. My sanity check is on the part of how many of the, of the Thousands of kilometers of stormwater and sewer are already inspected with CCTV. Because if you’re making CCTV better, but CCTV is , like really a small portion of the inspection, then you’re making a portion of the portion better. So what’s the status quo?

The Global State of Pipe Inspections

Amanda Siqueira: like I mentioned before, over a billion meters of pipe is inspected every year. And that’s roughly 10 percent of the global network. But the thing is that global network is inspected every year. So that billion meters is recycled every year. The attempt of most small utilities and certainly the ambition of most small utilities is to try and see if they can inspect their entire network at, , a one to 10 frequency.

So they get around to the same pipe every 10 years most. Water utilities are not anywhere close to that. Some are between, you know, one and 20 years. Like we see in the US in other markets such as Australia and New Zealand and even the UK, it can go out to one every 50 years, once every 80 years.

But crucially, they’ll keep inspecting their network Until they reach that frequency. So, even though it’s a discrete amount every year, they’ll do the same and try and get that number up as much as they can to bring that frequency down.

Antoine Walter: Let me try to see if I get that one. So there are about 10 billion meters of pipes, which could be inspected out of which every year, 1 billion gets inspected. You’re inspecting 2000 kilometers. So 0. 2 percent of the amount, which is CCTV inspected. And the added value is that today they might just inspect, and see things which maybe evolve.

So they need to do it every year and stuff like that, where you say, I’m assessing, and then you’re good to go for a longer period of time. Do I get that one? Right?

Amanda Siqueira: Yes. Yeah, exactly. And there’s huge upside. So like you say, VAPAR’s adoption is a small percentage of the global inspection market. So there’s a few jobs on what we do, but also, it’s a lot of money to put a camera in a pipe.

So if you’re going to spend the money to put the camera in the pipe, you want that data to be high quality. You want it to be objective and. Very very accurate. So that’s what we help with as well.

Antoine Walter: Interesting. It’s a lot of money to put a camera in a pipe. How much additional costs would it be to run your inspection on top? If you take a percentage, like it’s 100 points, put that camera in the pipe, how many points would it be for you to inspect on top of that?

Amanda Siqueira: We’re sub 10 percent of the meter per meter cost of putting a camera in the pipe. But that’s not actually where our business case for our software is actually made. Business case for our software is what happens after the camera comes out of that pipe. So someone’s going to make a decision as to whether I need to do anything or there’s any activities that need to be scheduled.

And that?

can bethree to eight times more expensive, that activity. And so that’s the decision that needs to have a little bit more governance over it based on the data that’s collected.

Antoine Walter: I get that it’s not the business case and we’ll discuss the business case, but I’m just trying to get, a muggled understanding of all of that, because if I take a reference of when you’re welding pipes, for instance you have some norms, which tell you, you should do destructive testing.

And then destructive testing is super expensive because you need to cut your pipe, cut it out see if the world was right or not and stuff like that, which means you have 100 percent more costs when you’re doing that additional layer. Compared to if you did nothing, whereas here, if I get you right, you have less than 10 percent additional costs to run the VAPAR on top of what you’re already doing, which might make you think, okay, it’s not that much more probably worth the effort, but we’ll go into that.

The Founders’ Journey

Antoine Walter: Before we go into the absolute details, I’d like to get your story right. Ends. You have a slightly different story on your website from what I read from press articles, because you are two co founders with Michel Aguilar, who’s your co founder.

And your website says two Australian engineers on a mission. Whereas what I read in the press is that you’re also high school friends, which is not mutually exclusive, but what’s the story?

Amanda Siqueira: Michelle and I went to uni together. , so I did civil environmental engineering and Michelle did mechatronics engineering. So all things machine learning so knowing each other from uni we also went to high school. You’re right. We went to, Western Sydney high school together.

So we’ve known each other before we started VAPAR for over 15 years and then much longer now since we’ve started VAPAR together.

Antoine Walter: You know, each other and you go on to do your own engineering studies. And within those studies, you end up having to inspect pipes and you find out it’s cumbersome. And then you decide to do something about it. It sounds like the perfect Silicon Valley story, but there’s always more nitty gritty details to it.

So what’s the full story?

Early Challenges and First Customer

Amanda Siqueira: Yeah, so I was working at Sydney water as an intern eight hours a day, just watching sewer footage. But that was in 2009 when I was an intern and then VAPAR only started in 2017, 2018. Michelle herself actually had a bit of wastewater experience as well. She worked on the process automation controls for Bondi wastewater treatment plant.

So famous beach Bondi the wastewater treatment plant controls on that. So she had a little bit of experience with not only Sydney water, but with um, Um, and then, , her and I have always been tossing ideas back and forth with each other. So when, deep learning a lot of the open source frameworks were coming out in 2017 and they were starting to beNot only the frameworks itself, but the forums were guiding people on how to use these open source frameworks and people like Michelle and I could just jump on the forums and learn really quickly how to use these frameworks and customize them to our very specific needs.

Not everyone knows what they’re looking at when they’re looking at inspection footage. So, at that time it was a really nascent spot in the deep learning field. So, yeah, we were able to capitalize on it really

early.

Antoine Walter: You say forums. Did you teach yourself deep learning on Reddit or what’s the story?

Amanda Siqueira: Oh, you’d be surprised. Well, I mean, at that time there was the forums was one of the only ways. I mean, short of that, you had to kind of be a PhD in computer science to be able to like replicate what Google was just giving you for free.

Antoine Walter: But still, there’s a word between we always wanted to do something together. We noticed that field was maybe under researched, underserved, and we create a company and we take the world. So at what’s the turning point? When do you say, Oh, we need to create that thing and that thing has to be VAPAR.

And it’s going to be that, was it really what we see today of VAPAR or did you do some pivots along the way? What was the first iteration?

Amanda Siqueira: Yeah. So, the first iteration of VAPAR was really, again, capitalizing on that deep learning object detection kind of movement that was really early in, in 2017. And it was basically AI for anything. So it was, you know, counting people, counting cars, counting traffic lights, counting possums.

there was lots of kind of use cases that we were exploring and trying to test, you know, will people , pay us for this sort of data. then I want to say it was a book by Peter Thiel zero to one that I read and there was a whole bunch of criteria that he was kind of, you know, he puts out there to say what makes a good startup and especially in that kind of early phase.

And one of the things that I think really crystallized. The VAPAR that we know today is what is something that you as a founder team like what’s your secret sauce that like no one else or it would be very difficult for someone to replicate. And, you know, Michelle and I kind of looked at each other and. There’s myself and just as a rough number, some 3, 000, some 5, 000 people globally that know what they’re looking at when they’re looking at the inside of a sewer pipe. I hope that number will change, but at the moment, very few people know what they’re looking at. And so if Google wanted to try and replicate this, it would be very difficult now, maybe not the case, but when we were starting there was much more interesting things that Google were applying theiralgorithms towe were like, this is a small space would probably protected for now.

And so we decided to start there and lo and behold, people started paying us for it. and certainly we built it out from there.

Antoine Walter: That’s super interesting and I’ll continue with that one but just, sorry I’m slowing you down. But it makes me think, you know, of when chat GPT-3, 3.54 came out, you had a lot of entrepreneurs coming out and saying, Hey, I can now do that with chat GPT, which I could not do before. I’m putting the brackets around entrepreneur, because a lot of that was like, really when the new chat GPT was out, their business model was dead. What you’re saying is that. That was the mass market reaction to AI becoming main stage. You were an early adopter in the crew of people who in the 2017, so those algorithms were starting to be public and to be in the open space with those forums. And then you’re thinking, okay, that was early adopters. What is special about us? We understand the shitty side of the story, so let’s go there. But still you had to have some merits to be within those early adopters, which makes me think you were on a chase to create something. Am I right with that?

Amanda Siqueira: Yes. Yeah, definitely. I think even me personally, really fell in love with the idea of starting a business, starting something. , I did engineering um, thought that?

I needed to get an MBA. So I spent about a year trying to get into an MBA. And another engineering colleague of mine who had started his own business, he was you just got to start, there’s no MBA in the world that’s going to teach you anything.

you won’t learn quicker if you just do it yourself.

Antoine Walter: You mentioned that not long after you had create your first MVP, some money started flowing. So what’s your first customer? What’s the story?

Amanda Siqueira: Yeah. So our first customer was a council in Sydney, Australia they had a huge amount of inspection footage 5, 000 videos, in fact that they had never got coded but they wanted to be able to pull into their system and start making investment decisions on and.

It was kind of like this serendipitous moment where we were like, well, we need footage to train our algorithm. And so Michelle built this very early stage of our product where we actually went through and manually coded the footage for them.

So it was more of a professional services arrangement. I wasn’t even a product really at that point. By delivering that project we were developing that data set as I went. So, yeah, it was a very interesting project. We spoke openly about the AI ambition with them, and that won them over because, you know, they could have got that done by anybody.

But they wanted to get us involved and we were very excited about being involved because, they saw the vision to say, this is ridiculous, that we’re getting people to do this. Like, if you can find a solution, go

for it.

the first AI was you. Yeah. Well, you’ve gotta start somewhere. But now there’s a lot more ed to the process.

Antoine Walter: do you find them? Do they find you? What’s the way

Amanda Siqueira: certainly At that stage, it was just I had worked in the industry. Michelle as well had worked in the industry. It was really just networks. So people that we knew, contacts that we knew that sort of stuff. I mean, even now It’s a lot about warm introductions and referrals, clients speaking to clients.

So that’s never really gone away. I think the wood industry, as you know, is very small but tight knit. So yeah, that’s been helpful.

AI in Pipe Inspections: Benefits and Challenges

Antoine Walter: When you’re looking at those footage images, what are you looking for? Are you looking for, to say, you know, that’s a route, that’s a crack, that’s whatever could be like a fatberg or I don’t know what could all be in those pipes? Or are you also straight from the beginning assessing that and saying, yeah, that’s a route.

You’re right. But given how the route is placed and don’t touch it for the next 10 years

Amanda Siqueira: It’s a bit of an iterative process. , Each region that we’re in. So we’re in Australia, New Zealand us and the UK there is a reporting standard for each of these. So if you’re doing pipe coding there’s a standard against which you need to do that.

And there’s on average, roughly around 200 particular defects that a reporter could report on. And so our product or even a manual process would be going through and looking at the footage and saying, okay, If I say something that’s interesting does it classify against any of these 200 defects that are in the standard?

So that process happens first and objectively and rightly so, the layering of this condition assessment or risk assessment generally happens after To say, okay, well, I found all these defects. Maybe these ones I care about these ones. I don’t. The severity is also taking into account things like that to make sure that you’ve got all the granularity and you’ve got all the information.

So that, you know, if you inspect it in 10 years, again, you can see the, potential depreciation of the pipe, but that decision making that point of time generally is separate from the actual defect identification itself,

Antoine Walter: As a rule of thumb, AI detect more defects than the human eye or less defect than human eye or exactly the same number

Amanda Siqueira: more actually and we found that phenomena that The AI detects more because there’s not as much fatigue associated with identifying like fine roots at every joint. you need to report on any root intrusion. in clay pipes, there’s a joint every two meters.

And so that can be cumbersome. And if you’re an operator, you have to like basically pause and write physically fine routes into the inspection software. So, AI picks up more. But when it comes to severity operators basically it’s par for par if it’s high severity, so they’re very unlikely to miss human operator would very unlikely to miss things like collapses or big holes in the pipe as

same with AI.

Antoine Walter: but the fact that it detects more is what I was expecting. And where my question is leading to is can it be scary for the utility to suddenly see that they are much more defects than what they thought because you’re detecting more and hence they might be overreacting. Whereas what you’re detecting is something which is of a low severity, which is good to know, but also is proof that.

After all the network is safe

Amanda Siqueira: Yes. . It can be very scary and a lot of utilities for that reason, kind of. Don’t like the granularity that the data that the AI can give you which is totally understandable because as soon as you write these things down, I’m an organization says you write these things down and they have to, act on it.

But the way that we work with our clients is to say, Hey, this is the data. This is what it says. But your risk assessment and your asset management policy can dictate something different. So just because you have all of these defects in the network we can have a look at them, apply a certain risk score to each of these defects and say, this is something that is going to impact in this financial year or this planning period or not.

And we can start to calibrate how the treatment is applied so that their longterm financial planning is not. completely blown out of the park just because they found like 15 cracks that they’d never

seen

before.

Antoine Walter: and do they trust you?

Amanda Siqueira: So that’s a good question. We’ve shown in our data that our AI has been able to pick up 90 percent of the defectsin people’s inspection footage. So there is a percentage where people have had to go and get involved and Nope, the AI is wrong. But we make that completely open and available for people to do that.

So within the product itself, they can see what the AI is thinking. We don’t make it a black box for them. they can say, okay, AI has got this wrong. I can see why it’s got it wrong. So we show people what the AI is thinking. we try to engender a sense of trust, but make it very customizable so that they’re making the decisions.

And that’s, I think, a really important part because we want to empower our clients to understand impacts of their decisions.

Antoine Walter: I didn’t ask that to push in a corner. It was just, you know, I’m working for a 222 years old piping company. And we introduced, I think a bit less than a decade ago, a non destructive testing of pipe welds service. And our first customer, our value proposition for that was to say, we inspect the welds,

 And we’re going to assess, and we might sometimes find defects, but we’re going to tell you those defects are fully fine, are within the design parameters, hence keep the weld, don’t cut it out. And we still think is the full added value of the service, which is to say, you don’t simply see a defect and cut out instead of what you do the maths.

And if the maths add up that you still have sufficient strength in the world, you would not touch the world. But that customer told us, yeah, all nice. I read your story. I listened to your marketing. I read the brochure. I saw the video, whatever you want, but if you find a defect, whatever it is, cut it out. defeating the point, but it’s a matter of trust. And I’m thinking if we come as a two centuries old company and we give an assessment, we give a guarantee and still the customer wants us to cut out, just to say, yeah, machine can calculate stuff, but I’m running my plant, you know, we did like that for 10 years or for 20 years or for 40 years, which you.Probably here pretty often. I’m thinking as a young startup coming out fresh in the field. And you’re saying, Hey, we detected all of those, but it’s fine. It’s not that straightforward that they trust you from the get go

Amanda Siqueira: Yes, you’re right. As far as their risk assessment we basically say to them, these are all the things that we found. And then we also go back to them and say, okay, what’s your thoughts on cracking or what’s your thoughts on root intrusion?

Do you want zero root intrusion? In which case you got to dig up every pipe. Or are you saying to us actually 10 percent of a root intrusion of the cross sectional area of the pipe? I’m okay with that. Because I inspect frequently or I’ve got a return program already online , that calibrates down the investment that’s needed.

So it’s a really, yeah we totally involve the client to make sure that they’re they’re making the decisions, but you’ll rewrite some clients just have a blanket zero defect policy, which is very challenging if you’re dealing with taxpayer dollars, but nonetheless, some people have the money.

Antoine Walter: So for all your potential customers who might be listening to us, let’s take. one of your projects from A to Z, where you’re going to tell me who’s your ideal customer, how do they look like, and , if one of your ideal customers happens to really be your customer, let’s pick that story.

I know you have stories from Australia, from New Zealand, from UK, even one from the US. So I let you pick the one which you think would be the most accurate to describe your process. how you initiate the conversation with them, what happens, what do you deliver, and when does it end, if it ends.

So, what story do we tell? What case study do you want to pick?

Amanda Siqueira: Yes. Yeah.

Case Study: Northumbrian Water

Amanda Siqueira: So it was actually a recent case study that we delivered at the swan conference in Vancouver a couple of months ago. So we do have a case study with Northumbrian water. They’re a water utility in the UK. Albeit the UK is a very Unique market, but the use case that Northumbrian water used us for isn’t so .

They run a reactive CCTV program. And what that means is basically the customer calls up and tells them that something’s gone wrong before they put a camera in the pipe, as opposed to proactive, where they putting a camera in the pipe before the customer calls up. They don’t want to do that, but they’re forced to, because there’s a lot on their network that they’ve got to manage.

And so they came to us actually via another customer referral. it was another customer United utilities that was advocating the use of us and Northumbria had found out about us through them They actually did a trialwhere they pitted us against another AI company and selected us because of, various parameters, AI accuracy product ease, things like that customer serviceWhat we did for Northumbrian Water is we took all of their reactiveCCTV inspection footage and people uploaded the footage directly from site.

So there was no coding on site. They uploaded the footage directly to our platform. The AI did all of the coding and then the people in the back office at Northumbrian, the technical specialists, they came in and said, Based on the defects identified and the recommendation that we had applied they decide, do they agree with the recommendation or the AI or do they not?

And so it turned this process that is very subjective into a very streamlined process. But the other thing that it did that really helped Northumbrian Water was aligned asset health with investment. So the crucial thing there is when you’re putting a camera in a pipe to fixa blockage or something like that the asset management principles of the organizationmay not be front of mind of the person that’s going and popping that blockage.

And so to be able to get data to match up to say, okay, this blockage is because there’s a joint displacement. And so I need to fix that joint displacement so I don’t come back here. Again be identified in the back office and that process is then eliminated. So they don’t go back again.

Antoine Walter: Lots of stuff to deconstruct here. So let me take them one by one. First, if I get you, right, that means with Northumbria and what you did was automation level three. So you’re the footage and giving a recommendation as to what should happen, and then someone manually steps in and reviews that.

I don’t know if it’s 100 percent of them or if they were sampling some of them then that I agree with the recommendation that I don’t agree with the recommendation. So is that your streamlined way of working or was it a way to build the confidence with Northumbria? And now they would simply trust you because they found out that they would agree with the recommendation 99 percent of the time.

Amanda Siqueira: No, so that’s the way that we work with all clients. So even though we strongly advocate the use of AI, the way that we talk about our tool is it’s like an assistant, you know, to borrow the Microsoft term of copilot. It’s like an assistant. It’s like an extension of your team.

It’s like a grad or an intern in your team. So you let them help you or certainly they can be helpful. But, You wouldn’t leave them unsupervised. So all the footage has a recommendation against it, but all the footage does need to have someone to go through and say, yes, no, yes, no. And that’s the thing.

It’s exception handling. It’s not, you know, the detailed analysis. And so that’s the offset here is to say, okay, you don’t have to do the detailed analysis but you do have to do the exception handling, which is much quicker.

Antoine Walter: but do you have like a statistics of how often the human would disagree with the AI?

Amanda Siqueira: 10 percent of the time there’s a difference of opinion.

Antoine Walter: in the long run, would you envision a future where that validation step from the human falls out?

Amanda Siqueira: I think we’ve definitely toyed with the idea but , what I expect at the very least is that level of human intervention to go down because we know that the volumes of inspection footage is going to go up. I don’t want to be enabling people to just sit there and do exception handling the whole time.

But to remove humans from the process altogether I think would be a mistake. I think for the base needs of skill preservation, but I think there’s also justwe don’t want to be removing humans from a process. And I think it’s a strong case for enablement but not

replacement.

Antoine Walter: Are you saying that because you believe in it? Or are you saying that because you don’t want to be too scary with your AI stuff?

Amanda Siqueira: No, I genuinely believe it. Like, so even if you look at mypersonal use case, and this is a lot of the reason of my personal why behind VAPAR, I was watching footage eight hours a day is my job. And it wasn’t the watching the footage that was exciting and certainly nothing about watching footage is exciting.

But the more complex stuff is like, what do I need to do about it? Do I need to do it now? How much is it going to cost me? You know, how can I dovetail this with maybe roadworks that are also planned? So there’s a huge amount of complexity that goes into the decision making that engineers and technical people do need to be involved in.

And it’s not a straightforward set and forget that you can just leave it to. So yeahit’s about removing the mundane stuff and, you know, kind of helping get to the more complex stuff that people do need to be involved in.

Antoine Walter: you said you expect to see more of that inspection to happen in the future and more of it to be checked. What is the bottleneck today? Like, could you be having robots, like the Mars robots, just wandering the sewers day in, day out? And the reason why we don’t do that is that today it needs humans to watch it.

And if they don’t watch it, you’re just capturing data for nothing. In which case you’re somewhat removing the bottleneck because you’re simplifying the inclusion of humans, or is it still prohibitively expensive to run those robots in the sewer? In which case it might grow as a practice to inspect more, but not spectacularly.

So on which end would we be

Amanda Siqueira: it’s on the ladder. So it is prohibitively expensive toinspect your entire network. And even though that’s the start of the value chain, we’ll get more and more footage as there’s more and more footage collected. The value proposition of what we provide is more the data insights that comes from , the aftermath.

And so even though there’s mediocre growth in how much inspection footage is captured every year we’re just chasing our tails on that number.

Investment in Water Infrastructure

Amanda Siqueira: We’re going backwards. There’s billions of dollars that are being spent every year.

And that’s. Not even close to what needs to be spent. So, the investment side of things is going up and needs to go up further.

Antoine Walter: There’s a book, which is difficult to read. Not the zero to one, like very good recommendation you gave us. It’s really you have to be a water nerd to find any interested in, but it’s full of wisdom stats and stuff like that, which is called Global Water Funding, which is a book by David Lloyd Owen.

And I had David on that microphone some seasons ago to discuss the book, but his conclusion is to say that we have to do more with less just because the infrastructure investments are not going up to the magnitude it should, if you want to keep just the networks in the status quo they are today, not even thinking of making them better.

So, We have to be much more cautious about the investments and the way we place them so that we make them more efficient, which makes me think that exactly what you said, when you avoid replacing a line, which doesn’t have to be replaced. And when you strategically pick the one which has to be replaced at the right time and for the right reasons, well, you’re doing exactly that you’re doing more with less or same budgets.

You mentioned these three to eight times lever aspects between. the cost itself of the inspection and what it really delivers in terms of infrastructure management. First, let’s get that one right. What are we exactly discussing here in terms of infrastructure planning? Can you please Qualify those three to eight, and then we go into your scope.

Amanda Siqueira: Yeah.

Cost and Efficiency of Pipe Inspections

Amanda Siqueira: so let’s take Australia, for example, it can cost anywhere between, five to 10 a meter to put a camera in a park. But then it can cost between, 250 to 1, 000 a meter to do any sort of rehabilitation on that pipe based on the inspection footage that was captured. And that’s only if something needs to be done.

So obviously not all the time, sort of one to one ratio of inspection to rehab. But if something does need to be done, it’s very expensive to do it. Whether it’s trenchless or whether you have to dig the trench. Very expensive to do the work.

Decision-Making in Infrastructure Management

Amanda Siqueira: So, that’s where the decision making is super important to make sure that you’re only spending that money on things that are high risk and deescalating even Assets that you are promoting to rehab and saying, actually, maybe I don’t need to do that this financial year.

But I have budget potentially later on.

Antoine Walter: So five to $10 per meter to inspect 250 to $300 per meter to rehab if needed. Out of these places where you expect to see trouble, what’s the rough rule of thumb?

Percentage of pipes where you’d say. You need to do something in the coming five years.

Amanda Siqueira: Yeah. So we find about 10 percent of the inspected network requires some sort ofrehabilitation or follow on work. And that can vary. Like you say, sometimes there’s a program that’s actively targeting an area where they know that there’s issues and some of it’s proactive.

So it can go up and down from that.

Antoine Walter: But if, I do quick maths and I do the calculation of the mathematic experience here, if I take the upper end of the inspection, so 10 and 10 percent of the time, it’s going to need replacement, which means it would cost me 100 to inspect in order to find a defect, which needs to be replaced. Replacing cost me, if not, I take the lower end of , that range 250 per meter. So even if I’m in the absolute worst conditions and all the factors down, it still has a 2. 5 X factor, which makes it worth it to inspect every single time before I take any rehabilitation decision. So that sounds like pure evidence.

Is it that straightforward? Like you would always inspect and assess before you go to works or would sometimes people just say, you know what? I know my network and I can listen to it. And I know I need to dig here.

Amanda Siqueira: No, they definitely put a camera into the pipe. and so there’s oftentimes a delay between that first inspection that identifies a defect that. does need a rehabilitation of up to six months. And so the contractor that gets awarded the rehabilitation will sometimes say, well, hang on, this footage is six months old.

I don’t know what I’m going to get myself into here.

I might lose a camera down, so I’m going toput a camera in again, then they’ll do the rehabilitation itself, and then they’ll put the camera in again to show evidence to the water authority, yep, I’ve done this and so therefore you can pay me now.

So there’s lots of footage getting captured.

Antoine Walter: So drum roll, we’re 45 minutes in and we need to answer that question.

Business Model and Revenue Streams

Antoine Walter: Where do you make your money?

Amanda Siqueira: it’s mainly from the decision support. So being able to say to people that, you know, we go to councils and municipalities and they say, look, I’ve only got 200, 000 this financial year. But they’ve got, a 2 million backlog. And so they’re what do I do?

How do I spend the money? Best. And so we’re able to reverse engineer a lot of the asset health information about their network that they’ve already inspected, or sometimes that they’ve inspected now and say, well, In priority order, this is what are the highest risk assets. And if you tell us you care about cracks, then all of them become high risk.

But if you tell us you actually care about fractures and maybe only the breaks or infiltration then we can start to whittle it down to a more manageable number. That means that you can go to your council, get sign off, you can get it out to contract really quickly. And start to whittle down that infrastructure backlog instead of accelerating it further by spending the money in the wrong

way.

Antoine Walter: I get the value you’re bringing, but how do you collect your fair share of that value? What’s your business model?

Amanda Siqueira: , we work on a per meter or per foot basis. So every meter that’s processed or every foot that’s processed of inspection footage that goes through our platform we have a rate associated with that. So it’s basically to say that at a certain tier level.

So let’s for argument’s sake, a thousand or 10, 000 meters there’s a certain rate associated. And if you go above, then the rate drops. So the more that you use the kind of cheaper it gets. And so we, you know, bias for volume and make sure that we’re aligning value with delivery.

Antoine Walter: so you’re solely. Paid on the amount of footage, which you assess if they save billions. Thanks to you. You don’t take a cut.

Amanda Siqueira: Correct. We’re looking at pricing. We’re looking, well, I mean, this is the challenge with the value metric and it’s, it is genuinely it’s not just us, but I think it’s not, pricing is never easy thing to to nail down. But our current value metric is per foot or per meter of inspection footage processed.

We’re looking at, you know, different ways of identifying that because, you know, . Some organizations increase or decrease their inspection footage year on year. , and we know that they know when we know that we’re delivering value. So, how do we look at that differently?

So it’s a constant food for thought.

Challenges and Market Expansion

Antoine Walter: So now I need to take my hat of being the bad guy. What would be the number one objection? Like You go in and they tell you not interested because of that. What’s that one? And then I have a second one.

Amanda Siqueira: actually something that you brought up earlier, which is, I don’t want the. Like the granularity from my network, like I’m happy with what I’ve got. I’m happy with the level of data that I’ve got. I don’t need to be able, I don’t struggle with meeting budget and the asset health information that I’m getting from my current provider.

So, in that case, thenthe value proposition degrades.

Antoine Walter: I think that’s the saddest time I was right. so that means that they would not go for it just because they prefer being blind and playing it like the ostrich and having the head in the ground.

Amanda Siqueira: . In markets where the asset management policy is quite strong and there’s been consistent over time prudent spending of on high risk assets and their backlog is small and they’ve got a good proactive program they don’t need as much of a solution like VAPAR yet, you know, we’re expanding our offering, but our ICP, our ideal customer profile is very much those organizations that are woefully underfunded and really require a data solution to help create a pathway out to reducing that infrastructure backlog for them.

Antoine Walter: So that means public utilities, because those would be slightly more underfunded with the exception, of course, of the UK kind of weird animal, which is a bit special. so your ideal customer profile would be those public utilities, but you would not go to I guess Denmark or Singapore where they are rightfully funded.

So why would they? Need to optimize

Amanda Siqueira: most of our work comes out of the UK because there’s a very weird scenario of privatization in that industry. But the fact remains the level of funding does not meet the requirement of the network. So, that’s true very much in the UK because of the combined sewer system.

Exists also very strongly in the U. S. So we’re seeing a lot of exciting things come out of the U. S. Where we’ve got, say, in Australia, I’ve got a separated system. So, the sewer pipes and the stormwater pipes are completely different. They’re not the same pipe. There’s not as stark a difference between how much funding people have and the infrastructure backlogs.

Antoine Walter: you didn’t deliver to Paris, for instance, because we are recording the third day of the Olympics and who saw the opening ceremony knows that there was a heavy rain on Paris, which means that now all the open water. Sports are in trouble because yeah as many billions that they poured into the network, I guess they haven’t inspected the right pipes at the right place and it is a combined sewer and now it’s not meeting quality, but would those be also. Like, there’s a big event L. A. is coming up in four years, maybe they want to be better prepared than Paris. Would that be a use case for you where there’s high stakes or really it’s about infrastructure management?

Amanda Siqueira: So there’s a number of drivers, such as the Olympics. even when the Olympics were in Sydneya lot of driversEnhance the amount of investment that goes into the pipe network. Sydney built a 14 kilometer tunnel storage situation interceptor that basically stopped any of the sewage go out into Sydney Harbor for the games.

So, you know, probably something similar that Paris is invested in there is a very cool, if you, I don’t know if you’ve been to it, there’s a very cool sewer museum right next to the Eiffel Tower. You should definitely hit it up, I’m sure Paris has done something similar, LA as well.

Antoine Walter: Those drivers are also very helpful, but the big tailwind that is, You cannot ignore is the the depreciation of our assets the requirement, the infrastructure backlogs, just globally going up. That’s more of a of a slow burn driver for us that is definitely going to help us with adoption. Totally off topic. I’m sorry about that. Do you still have in Sydney that four kilometer pipe, which goes into the ocean because it was faster to build than upgrading the waste treatment plant, which they did for the Olympics, because that way you could have all the sports going on the coast

 I wouldn’t be surprised if it was still there. there’s so many solutionsthat need to be employed last minute to take care of these problems rather, but yeah, whether they’re longterm is the

Amanda Siqueira: question.

Antoine Walter: Okay. Sorry for the sidetrack. Bring you back on track. You mentioned how the UK is one of your main markets. Is it a challenge as an Australian company based out of Sydney? I know that you have also an office in the UK, but time zones. are against you is that troublesome or for an AI startup? Come on.

Everything can be remote.

Amanda Siqueira: unfortunately we haven’t figured out how to make AI align time zones. So yes, it is a very big challenge. In any organization, people are the biggest asset in a, in an organization. And so it does create a unique Kind of scenario. And I think people will have to be very good at communication.

Cause like I say, nine hours is the best case actually in winter. It’s 11 between the East coast of Australia and and the UK, , we just got our first team member in us. So it’s 24 hours, which is fun. And again, just like elongates those communication timelines between the team.

You mentioned the U S on your website, there’s this thing which says us one reference more to come. So is it like your next elder radio? After all, it’s much larger than the UK and arguably they have At least the same kind of trouble, but how challenging is it for you? I mean, what I’m trying to understand here is that you just raised 500, 000 from investors led by Pureterra Ventures.

Antoine Walter: And I’m just out of my little brain thinking that after all, that’s not so much money. So if you want to take on different geographies, the entire world, can you do that with that amount of money, or do you need to focus and say, You know what the U. S. is it, and when I say the U. S. it’s those four states on the east coast and let’s start there and let’s build our beachhead.

Amanda Siqueira: the latter part of what you just said is pretty much the strategy is to make sure that we’re able to cement ourselvesto get ourselves into the U. S. And then make sure that we’re got, you know, at least 5 to 10 really happy customers to start with get ourselves to a milestone as well.

So generally when startups fundraise, you’re raising to a milestone. You’re raising generally 24 months is a rule of thumb of runway. And there’s, many schools of thought on this, whether you raise as much as you can or raise as little as you need.

And we’re raising for a milestone raising for that , two year runway to make sure that we’re in the U S we’ve got really good customers. We’ve got good traction, but also that , we’re also in the UK. That’s our biggest market. that regulatory period that, you know, it was just about to begin.

We’ve got to make sure that we’ve cemented our position in the UK it’s very exciting. There’s a lot of innovation happening there. So, yeah the five mil is going to be, it’s going to be pushed.

Antoine Walter: So your philosophy is to raise as little as you need.

Amanda Siqueira: Well, we raise as much as we need. Cause I think that’s what any startup would be doing. Just to make sure that you don’t want to over dilute, but you also want to make sure that you’re not stifling the company. Just because you want to protect your position.

Antoine Walter: In your UK story, you said you were facing that other AI company. And when I was doing my research, I found out that Nowadays, every specialist water venture fund has its own J well in the crown in terms of AI assessment of sewer and stormwater lines. And so for future adventures, it’s going to be you.

But I think Burntisland Ventures is investing in sewer AI, and I can’t remember who’s the one investing in fluid robotics, , but I’m just wondering being several different companies in that field, I would see that as a positive because that means there’s a market and it’s much easier with a lot of brackets around the easier build the market.

If not alone on the other end, Sure, AI is a US company backed by US investors. So they’re, if you go to the US, you’re going to fight the locals and it can be tricky.

Amanda Siqueira: Yeah, definitely. it’s very encouraging for us to see the traction that you sir, AI having fluid robotics as well. it gives us a lot of really positive market signals in the US and tells us a little bit of a story about the success that we might enjoy.

And that’s what we’re bidding for, right? And so, yeah, the challenge, there’s definitely a challenge. But yeah, we’re hoping to rise

to it.

Antoine Walter: Do you talk together like there would be a big villain, which is traditional approaches and you would be all fighting that big villain together. Or is it like pure competition or you don’t even that much even notice yourself because the water industry is so scattered that you can really be living in parallel timelines without ever crossing.

Amanda Siqueira: , the U S is So big, right? There’s so many water utilities and municipalities in one state alone, you could have, thousands and there’s like little pockets of people that know each other and things like that. So, Yeah it’s a very big place. There’s lots to be done there.

And each organization is coming at it from a completely different angle, albeit, you know, very similar technology. So we’re all using AI. But. You know, as an example, fluid robotics has a hardware component to what they do. So AI has a they don’t do the hardware themselves, but, you know, they interact with hardware certainly more than we do.

And for that reason, their customer and their ICP is slightly different to us. The problem that they’re solving is slightly different. Albeit the technology is very similar, ICP is can be slightly different in some cases.

Antoine Walter: So coming back to your own fundraise, I mean, there are several ventures payers and Pure Terra is the lead investor, but there’s one which is not a venture, which is Autodesk. So you have Autodesk on your cap table. What does that tell us?

Amanda Siqueira: Yeah, we’ve, we are absolutely stoked to have Autodesk on our cap table. Autodesk over the last couple years are heavily investing in water and we’re absolutely thrilled. So they canvas the market in the AI kind of pipe space . And selected VAPAR from the vendor that they wanted to proceed with in terms of just partnering.

And then, you know, it started there and then they, we had this race coming up and so they kind of put their hand up and said that they were interested to learn more. So, we’re super excited to have Autodesk. They’re doing a lot of investment in water and for audit for us?

you know, a global brand the customer footprint that they have in North America.

You know, we’re bidding for market share forhuge amounts of distribution, help and sales assistance that we can enjoy now because we have this partnership with Autodesk

Antoine Walter: Autodesk somewhat created the first ever water unicorn. acquired Innovize for 1 billion.

So. My thinking process is when they agreed on the valorization, Innovice became a unicorn. And then when Autodesk acquired Innovice, then they were not a unicorn anymore because they were acquired. , but just to say they are ready to, go big on, or they seem to be ready to go big on water topics.

So is that what you aim to be building? Or is it like totally unrealistic to say that a CCTV AI inspection tool can become a unicorn.

Amanda Siqueira: So if we were to stay in in exactly what we’re doing now I think that would be a very big challenge to make that claim. But yeah, no, our ambition is is. Much much higher than just doing pipes. So yeah, very excited to own own this pipe space.

So what are you building in the next five or 10 years,

Future Vision and Product Development

Amanda Siqueira: our whole kind of company and product vision is that it’s actually about public assets. So When we think about the customer in the ICP, the ideal customer that we’re trying to serve, it is the asset owner. So people that are trying to maintain these public assets with taxpayers money that just, You know, chasing the tails because the investment is potentially going to the wrong areas, or they don’t have enough.

And so the problem that we solve now and speaking about is related to simple pipes and drainage pipes. But there’s a lot more asset classes than just those two that this problem relates to. in the next couple of years, we’ll be looking at translating what our workflow is and the models from more than just sewer pipes more than just drainage pipes to adjacent ancillary assets and how we can grow that from there.

So, it is going to be, you know, that’s, that in and of itself is very crowded space. So we have no illusions that’s going to be an easy one, but such is the challenge of the role.

Antoine Walter: that’s, the vision and I’m, as I’m already going far too long and I’m sorry about that, I won’t use that open door you’re giving me but I’m going to mark that for the future because that’s a red ocean. That was Platformization and being like the OS of the water utility. I think that would make for a great sequel conversation.

So I put that one in the fridge, but I still have one question, which is that’s your vision. Now, if you translate it into your action plan for the next six or 12 months. What needs to happen?

Amanda Siqueira: Yeah. So what we’re doing now for water utilities is saying what’s gone wrong in your pipe. We’re using AI to deep learning over the inspection footage directly to say, here’s a lot of effects here and here. And then we use another bit of software to say, okay, this is what based on what you’re telling us, this is what you need to do about it.

We’re also helping people understand when they need to do something about it. So overlaying contextual information, whether it’s geospatial or risk and then cost. So when do I need to do something? And how much is it going to cost me?

Those two. moment I handled kind of cause I on platform. And so what we’re trying to do is complete that workflow to say, you’re able to come to a decision completely within our product on these four fundamental questions that help you fix an asset before it fails or fix pipe before it fails.

And once we’re able to do that in a very seamless way Then, you know, we’ll look at expanding out to to other asset classes.

 I thought that would be the last question in the deep dive, but now I need to ask, how do you get your insights on how your customers behave with the tool? Do you proactively go with them and look at what they do? Yeah, Well, so there’s this theory for like product management, but just even products called jobs to be done. And it’s about looking at. I think the, I don’t know if there’s a equivalent hardware store in France, but in Australia, it’s called Bunnings. And it’s basically the analogy of somebody walks into this hardware store.

And even though they ask for a quarter inch drill well, they actually want is a hole in the wall. But then hang on a second, they don’t actually want a hole in the wall. They want a painting there. if you were a Bunnings or a hardware company I could sell them a drill.

I could sell them a hook like a, you know, the three M ones that so there’s a bunch of solutions that could solve the problem. If you understand the core reason as to what the job is that they’re doing. And so. We look at our customers and foster a relationship with our customers such that we really try and understand their jobs as well, or if not better than them, so that we make sure we’ve only got one productone platform.

And when we release something, it has to work for everyone. So we want to make sure that we understand the core reason why people are doing what they’re doing and align it with everyone so that you know, can’t make everyone happy. Butthat deep understanding of the customer drives how we build.

Antoine Walter: Well, again, that is another area where I would probably push further, but I think that’s a sign. We need to have a sequel. Thanks to Amanda for everything you shared in that deep dive. To round off those interviews, I have a set of rapid fire questions. If that’s fine for you, I would switch to that. And in the meantime, about that jobs to be done story, there is an awesome episode of the everyone hates marketers podcasts on that very specific topic of jobs to be done.

I’m going to link it in the show notes. And for now, the rapid fire questions start with

It’s time for the Rapid Fire Questions!

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Rapid fire questions:

Antoine Walter: what is the toughest challenge in your opinion for water tech startups?

Amanda Siqueira: Sales cycles.

Antoine Walter: What would be your best single piece of advice for the founders and managers of the about 1000 early stage water startups?

Amanda Siqueira: Understand sales cycles.

Antoine Walter: What’s the drop of knowledge you wish more investors knew about the water sector?

Amanda Siqueira: I think how sticky contracts can be and how once you build that trust with a customer genuinely build that trust and relationship, there’s a huge amount of long term value.

Antoine Walter: So if I take a sad track from the two first answers, I understand that the cost of acquisition is super high because of the long sales cycle and all of that, but the lifetime value is also super high. So it’s worth the effort. Do I get you right?

Amanda Siqueira: Correct. But a lot of investors just say, Oh, six months sales cycle or like 12 months sales cycle. and they’re just like, see, yeah,

Antoine Walter: What was your most unexpected partnership and what did it bring you?

Amanda Siqueira: our most unexpected partnership was actually with a competitor who I won’t name, but It was very early days. We explored and actually got quite far down the line of co developing something together. It taught us a lot about that organization, but also about partnering what are some of the gates that we should put in place for no go or go, no go for partnerships and things like that. And so yeah, it actually really helped us partner in the future, which is an unexpected consequence.

Antoine Walter: You got me curious, but you said you can’t name them. So I respect that super short profitability or growth.

Amanda Siqueira: Gross.

Antoine Walter: What is the next profile you’ll hire

Amanda Siqueira: Us sales

director,

Antoine Walter: when you hire, are you looking for sector experience or startup experience?

 Sector over startup. Like specialist over startup. Opening new markets or doubling down on the current ones? And I think your previous answer tells us a lot about that.

Amanda Siqueira: Yeah. But but yeah, opening, opening new markets I think is. the focus of the two, though both are very important

for us.

Antoine Walter: What is that tool nobody speaks about, but you couldn’t live without?

Amanda Siqueira: Google tasks,

Antoine Walter: Oh I got Google drive, Google calendar in that section, but never Google task. So Google has a whole suit of things that people couldn’t live without. Interesting.

Amanda Siqueira: I mean, spreadsheets really, like, I feel like spreadsheets just in general. That’s also I’ve got like very cool spreadsheets that I love.

Makes you a little bit less of a cool kid just because you answered that. But yeah, sorry.

 oh no,

Antoine Walter: What’s the single piece of insight your ideal customer profile needs to hear right now?

Amanda Siqueira: They probably know the reality that not only you know, as it’s getting worse, but the other insight is we just don’t have enough people in the industry to do this sort of work. We can’t train people to sit there and watch CCTV for eight hours a day. And the people that are doing it now?

To be blunt.

Um, And so it’s, there’s this, silver wave of people that are going to start retiring and take that really fundamental and important knowledge hopefully not with them, but may do so, It’s an inevitability. You know, we’ve doubled our doubled our numbers on many accounts, but certainly usage year on year I’m sure others in the space that can say to similar numbers you know, people are really starting to look into this there is a better way.

And so definitely find out more if you think that you need some help.

Antoine Walter: What are you desperately needing and want to raise an open call for right now?

Amanda Siqueira: So very excited about getting our product into the U. I think there’s a huge need for it. We’ve seen the uptake in the UK which is a similar market. So yeah very keen to hear from any municipalities or water authorities in the North American area.

If you want to learn more about what we’re doing please reach out at vapidocco, CEO.

Antoine Walter: As always, those links will be in the show notes. Now, caveat as well, you know, the UK has two handfuls of water utilities. The US has 155, 000 of which 50, 000 must be wastewater utilities. So yeah, it’s a it’s a scattered iceberg you’ll have to take on. Last question. What can and should I do for you?

Amanda Siqueira: What can you do? Oh, you’ve already done so much, Antoine, even just having me on this podcast like I said, I’ve been a massive fangirl of your podcasts and your content online. So, definitely keen to stay a follower, but yeah, if there’s anything else that I can help with or.

keep on delivering your content.

that is straightforward. I’m telling, I’m asking you if I can help you and you’re telling me keep doing what you’re doing and I can help you. That’s a good deal. If all my conversations were that easy, you know,

but generally I think there’s not enough of a conversation about. water technology, startups the funding the issues in the space. And so really your content at least strikes according with me, and I’m sure that’s the case with all of your other followers. So, definitely you keen for you to keep doing what you’re doing.

Antoine Walter: I really appreciate I mean, it’s been a pleasure to spend that bit more than expected time with you. If people want to follow up with you, what’s the best place for me to redirect them to?

 Yeah. So they can check us out on our websitewww dot vapa co. Or hit us up on LinkedIn as well. Off track which is absolutely stupid, but one hour, you know, I can allow myself, I picked dww. show for my website. And then a lot of people are asking me, is it wrong? Because it should be www and you say dww. So it must be wrong. And you pick co, which people would be thinking, Oh, you missed the M, right?

Amanda Siqueira: Yeah.

Antoine Walter: But yeah, it’s on

Amanda Siqueira: Oh man. It’s the worst. Someone’s domain sitting on vapid. com and I’m not bothered to pay them. So I’ll just sit there with CEO.

Antoine Walter: So as always, the links are in the show notes, so check them out. Amanda, it’s been a great pleasure. I stand my point. I would be super happy to have a follow up with you. The next time you hit a big milestone, for instance, when you get your traction going in the U S or whenever you feel like it’s worth it to share the story, because we have still open doors from today.

Amanda Siqueira: So I can imagine that if we feed that with more in the future, it’s going to make for another cool conversation. So thanks a lot for that and talk to you soon. Thanks, Antoine.

Other Episodes:

FREDsense: Revolutionizing Water Quality Monitoring with Biosensor Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 7 May 2025

Swirltex: Revolutionizing Wastewater Treatment with Bubbly Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 30 April 2025

Blue Foot Membranes: The Next Evolution in Water Filtration

By Antoine Walter | 16 April 2025

Echo River Capital: Pioneering the Future of Water Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 3 April 2025

1001 Fontaines: Engineering Sustainable Water Access Through Social Entrepreneurship

By Antoine Walter | 22 March 2025

Amazon’s Water Footprint: Tech Giant’s Quest for Water Sustainability

By Antoine Walter | 19 March 2025

Turing: The AI Revolution Quenching the Water Industry’s Thirst for Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 26 February 2025

Altillion: Pioneering Digital Intelligence for Water Asset Management

By Antoine Walter | 6 February 2025

Flocean: Pioneering Ocean-Based Water Solutions

By Antoine Walter | 15 January 2025

Botanical Water Technologies: Harvesting Liquid Gold from Plants

By Antoine Walter | 4 December 2024

The post How VAPAR’s AI Makes Underground Pipe Inspections Seamless appeared first on (don't) Waste Water.

with Sabine Stuiver – CMO & Co-Founder at Hydraloop

Resources:

Hydraloop’s website: https://www.hydraloop.com/

Netflix – Brave Blue World: https://www.netflix.com/title/81326710

Sydney Water: https://www.sydneywater.com.au/

Hydraloop’s concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X37eivmtgV0

Become Hydraloop’s next Growth Hacker: https://www.hydraloop.com/post/job-opening-growth-hacker-digital-marketeer

Connect with Sabine Stuiver on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sabine-stuiver-10325319/

is on Linkedin

Antoine Walter on LinkedIn

Full Video:

The Rockstar of Water Tech

When Hydraloop hit CES 2020, it wasn’t just another tech debut. It was a splash in the world of sustainable living. Founded by Sabine Stuiver and Arthur Valkieser, Hydraloop introduced a sleek, compact system that recycles up to 45% of domestic water use. Think showers, handwashing, and laundry water—cleaned and reused for flushing toilets, washing machines, and even garden irrigation.

The Hard Facts about Water Recycling

Here’s why Hydraloop’s innovation is crucial:

• Water Scarcity: By 2050, 5 billion people could face water shortages.
• Urbanization: Cities are growing, and water demand is skyrocketing.
• Energy Use: 3% of the world’s energy is used to pump and treat water. Recycling water reduces this significantly.

Hydraloop’s system addresses these issues head-on, offering a decentralized solution that slashes water and energy use, cuts costs, and reduces carbon footprints.

Targeting the Big Players

Hydraloop isn’t just for eco-conscious homeowners. They’ve targeted major markets:

• Residential: Early adopters and sustainable homes.
• Commercial Real Estate: Office buildings and commercial spaces.
• Hotels and Lodges: High water usage areas needing efficiency.
• Student Housing: Cost-effective water recycling for large populations.

Hydraloop systems save up to 45% of household water use. In Europe, the average person uses 128 liters of water per day. With Hydraloop, about 55 liters from showers, 35 liters from toilet flushing, and 15 liters from washing machines can be recycled. That’s massive savings!

Australia’s Sydney Water, facing a projected customer base increase from 5 million to 9 million by 2050, partnered with Hydraloop. Why? Expanding wastewater infrastructure is costly. Hydraloop’s decentralized systems offer a cheaper, scalable alternative.

Scaling Up: From Garage to Global

Hydraloop started in a garage. Fast forward to today, and they’re scaling production with a shared smart factory in the Netherlands. With over 800 systems deployed worldwide, they’ve learned from real-world use, refined their products, and are now ready for global commercial growth.

Hydraloop’s vision? By 2035, every new home and building will have a water recycling system. They’re pushing for changes in building codes and standards to make this a reality. Their mission is clear: act wise and use water twice.

The Road Ahead

Hydraloop continues to expand its partner network, now boasting 130 partners in 50 countries. They’re launching new products and entering new markets with tailored solutions, like water recycling sea containers for campgrounds in drought-prone areas.

Hydraloop isn’t just a product; it’s a movement towards smarter water use. With climate change and urbanization putting pressure on water resources, innovative solutions like Hydraloop are more critical than ever. So, next time you think about sustainability, remember Hydraloop—the CES 2020 champion that’s changing the way we use water, one drop at a time.

My Full Conversation with Sabine Stuiver on Hydraloop’s path

These are computer-generated, so expect some typos

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Antoine Walter: Hi Sabine, welcome to the show.

Sabine Stuiver: Thank you. Glad to be here.

Antoine Walter: Well, I’m excited about the topic we’re going to discuss because it’s been a while. We had that conversation a couple of times on that microphone, but I think it’s still one of these nuts where it sounds a bit like church. People have an opinion on it and, facts don’t really bother them with their opinion, but still.

I’d like to move people’s conviction with the conversation we’re having today. , but let’s head straight into it.

Hydraloop’s Vertical Targets

Antoine Walter: From what I read on your website, you’re targeting four different verticals, residences, commercial real estate.

Hotels, lodges. You’re a marketing person, so I can bother you with that first question. Four is too much. If you have one, what’s the one you’re targeting and what is the absolute problem they have you can solve in a unique fashion.

Sabine Stuiver: Well, there is not one. This is the issue. I mean, every building where water is used, in handwashing or where people are having a shower and toilets are flushed. that is an opportunity for us and for them it is an opportunity to save water. So , marketing wise, it’s quite a challenge because we have such a diverse clientele.

And of course, initially we started B2C. Thank you. So this was like The early adopters, you know, literally building a home. but this has evolved. And of course for us, it is far more interesting , to work, B2B. So, for example, we work with a partner network and those partners can be anything from Sydney Water, which is one of the largest water utilities in the world, to, property developers, to hotels, lodges, student houses, and of course, home builders and private people.

Challenges and Opportunities in Water Conservation

Antoine Walter: You mentioned Sydney water, which gets me curious, , Australia in general has this tradition of the pink pipe and recycling water in a somewhat middle sized loop. So how do they integrate your shorter loop approach?

Sabine Stuiver: Currently, Sydney Water has 5 million customers and by 2050, they will have 9 million customers. And purely on the basis that the wastewater infrastructure to upgrade this for, almost doubling the amount of people would be so expensive,

so I’m not even talking about the clean water, I’m talking about the wastewater, that for them, it is far more interesting to see in how can they, reduce that wastewater and do longer with the infrastructure that they currently have. And this is one of the main reasons why they approached us and obviously also it saves on the clean water side.

And of course , I can’t remember exactly, but they are 85 percent or something dependent on rainwater. So when they have a wet season, it’s fine. But if they have the dry periods, which they have, then they’re stuck. And, they need desalination, which they are actually also using right now.

But integrating our systems , as an extreme de central solution. in each and every building, basically, reduces their enormous, investment costs of, the infrastructure, upgrades and for basically cleaning the water. we haven’t worked out exactly how we’re going to do this, on a commercial basis.

Like, are they going to lease our products? Is it going to be a water as a service product? You know, we’re still working on that.

Hydraloop’s Strategic Approach

Antoine Walter: So if I try to bring it down to base principle, that means that the two biggest challenges and drivers, if I understand you’re right, is urbanization, which leads to an additional burden on infrastructure, which is expensive to extend in the fashion it is today, and would be probably better off with decentralized slash distributed approaches.

Sabine Stuiver: And the second is water scarcity, which means that water risk is increasing, which you can mitigate if you are able to better recirculate water in your home. Absolutely. And there are a few other, important points as well. every litre weighs a kilo. And 3 percent of all energy used worldwide is actually used for transporting water from water utilities to buildings and then transporting it away again, moving it up mountains.

so actually the carbon footprint of water, people don’t realize is,very high. to give you alsoan idea at the moment,in the Netherlands, we are famous for our water tech as well, but also that a lot of the country is below sea level, where I am right now as well.

we have water scarcity as well. , basically, 900, 000 homes in the coming 10 years. Because of our population growth, and 300, 000 of those at this moment in time cannot be built. Why? Because the water utility companies not have sufficient supply to supply them to these buildings. So the interesting thing is now, and we are in discussions, for example, with these, I have to translate it now, because it’s called Boutafel, but it’s the building table, and this is in one of the areas in the Netherlands, and we are talking there with Vitens, which is The largest water utility, with the council, with property developers, etc.

And there we are also looking at how to build water smart precincts, cities and their water saving, becomes a water saver and a device like ours, but it can be other things as well will become the enabler for these projects to have the green light.

And this is not just happening in the Netherlands.

Water Scarcity & Global Impact

Sabine Stuiver: I can give you examples like UK, where now, new areas are being built whole precincts. the amount of water that can be extended is zero. these, areas need to be built with a lot of water saving measures and the areas around it need to be refurbished with water saving devices, so that bottom line with, 500 extra homes, no more water is used than currently is used.

it’s really interesting what is happening.

Antoine Walter: I would follow on question on that, but keep them for the deep dive for now. I just want to get the core of what you’re offering.

Core Offering & Market Strategy

Antoine Walter: And if I’m right, you are targeting 45 percent of the total in house water consumption that you can save what is inside those 45 percent and what is the best place to start?

Sabine Stuiver: In general, in Europe, we use about 128 litres per person per day. We drink two, and all the others change from often drinking water quality and become wastewater immediately. what we did is we looked at lightly contaminated grey water, which is a shower, hand basin, and washing machine,

 what we’ve added now, is that we can use the condensation water. So we collect the condensation water from heat pumps, air conditioners, and wash dryers. this is lightly contaminated water. the largest bulk is bath and shower, basically. And if you, in that 128 liters, if you look at, and I don’t actually have the figures up, exactly in my head.

let’s say that about 55 that 128 is your shower. That is, a five minute shower. six minute shower depending on your shower head. So many people have longer showers by the way, this is the average. if you look at toilet flushing, that will be 35 liters for one person per day, and then 15 liters for the washing machine.

this is what we looked at. collect the shower water, treat it, purify it, and then use it for toilet flushing washing machine. obviously, it is a little bit depending on, human behavior. if you have an hour shower, you’re not going to save 45%.

Antoine Walter: and you don’t need to change, your behavior. Although that I would not, advocate at all. But , our aim is, is that you can live your life. You can enjoy your shower. Yet you save water, energy, and money. And you contribute towards a more sustainable society. I have to ask you this question, which usually Entrepreneurs hate, but what is your elevator pitch to Hydraloop?

Sabine Stuiver: I think we’re just redefining water usage, with cutting edge and sustainable technology. with our systems, you save not only 45 percent of household water, but, we transform grey water from showers and washing machines into clean, reusable water for toilets, laundry, gardens, and swimming pools.

it doesn’t just cut your water bills, we actually are conserving precious water resources. Join us in making every drop count.

Antoine Walter: What you said before about the fact that we can use more water in the house without changing our behavior, , reduce our total amount of water, but without noticing somewhat made me think of the 50 Liter Home Coalition. You’re part of that, right?

Sabine Stuiver: no. We, indirectly, because we are a member of the Netherlands Water Partnership, and the Netherlands Water Partnership is a member.

Antoine Walter: Just because, I know that you’ve been featured in Paul O’Callaghan’s, first Netflix blockbuster. and Paul is very adamant every time I speak with him about the 50 liter home coalition. So I was trying to see if those dots connect, but, indirectly. So I

Sabine Stuiver: Indirectly. Yeah. And obviously, we already have, you know, just to give you an idea, with ours you can save, 45%, , what we normally say to make it 40 percent that is more kind of, you know, real realistic. so that means that we are already, very easily create 80 litre homes.

So we can do that right now. We’re doing that right now. And then in combination with, rainwater collection and, reusing that as hygienic water so that you can actually shower underneath the rainwater. And then the rainwater is collected in the hydro loop that is then treated, used for toilet flushing, washing machine, garden.

we have clients that have 15 litre homes. the solutions already here. We just need to implement them and it can be done.

Antoine Walter: That’s where I’d like to start that deep dive, which is the solutions exist. I mean, I had. Andrew Benedek on that microphone a while ago, and he was marketing membrane bioreactors in the 80s, 90s, which can be used to reuse water in your home. So technologically speaking, we could be reusing all the water in our homes or most of the water in our homes for 20, 30, 40, Maybe 40 years yet you’re entering the market in 2017.

And you’re coming from outside the water industry. you’re looking at it. You’re seeing the challenges and say, Hey, we have to find a better mousetrap, which is now my own interpretation of looking at your path. What’s the. Trigger, , what makes you think first, that’s a problem you want to solve.

And second, the way to solve it is Hydraloop.

Hydraloop’s Origin Story

Sabine Stuiver: This is a husband and a wife and a garage story. And, a bit early maybe, but my husband is a bit old. we were retired and we had had businesses in very different, markets. so we were retired and we’d started to travel and we lived abroad. , so first we did a bit of freewheeling and then we had time.

Yeah, because we’ve always been entrepreneurs and we finally had time to read and reflect. And in that time, you start to realize how privileged and lucky you are and that, what you need to do is, well, that’s how we intrinsically feel. We have to give back. And Arthur, my husband, basically has always been, you know, kind of, How do you say that?

Interested in water. he had a friend who, in a much earlier stage, started to think about this, hey, collect shower water, and this is what he literally did, he collected it, and then he used it to flush the toilet. Now, this was in the 2003, 2004. This became, like kind of an idea, Arthur and some other people, helped this guy because he had a good idea, but he’s not a business guy.

So they helped him with a business plan, found some investors and this became a product, and it was a very small company but I have to say the product was not good. Enough yet. So it developed a little bit. we became also, an investor, but in the 2008 and 2010, crashes, there was no more, money for investment.

new construction was almost, zero. So this company actually dissolved, but there was one patent in there. And that patent. we kept up with a small group of investors, but every year, people dropped out and said, we’re not going to keep it up.

And in 2015, when Arthur and I were living in the south of France, we were the last ones to actually, keep the patent up. Or let it go. And this is what prompted Arthur, , he thought, what a shame. Why is nobody doing this? Why are we still 21st century flushing our toilets with pure tap water whilst two billion people don’t have access to water at all?

And we will have two billion more by 2050. Why is nobody doing this? And then he thought, well, I have some experience with the previous company because , he helped him out and many things, I know everything that went wrong. which is very valuable information. Maybe I’ve got to do it. I’ve got time.

I’ve got money. I’ve got some experience. Let me try. And if it doesn’t work out, I quit. And this is literally what happened. So of course, first what he did is he started to read about all the legislation and standardization because that had changed. , when this was going on the predecessor, there was no standards.

So the water didn’t need to comply with anything at all. And we knew the first market was going to be Southwestern States of America, California, Nevada, where it’s dry, people have money, there is sustainable, mindset. So first we knew, okay, what does product has to comply with, so that we knew , what we needed to create.

And we moved back to the Netherlands. And literally, I lost him in the garage for about a year and a half, two years. And in November 2017, when we were still building in the garage, we went to Aquatech in Amsterdam, one of the largest water, you know, technology exhibitions. And there people were queuing up.

Antoine Walter: which triggers to me a devil’s advocate question, because you’re saying why don’t people adopt that? Why don’t people go for it when it makes so much sense and isn’t an obvious answer to that. Cost, not cost of what it would cost to build it, but it is so cheap to do the wrong behavior.

It is so cheap to take tap water and flush your toilet with tap water. And when you’re an individual in your home, you don’t really think, or you’re not really bothered about the fact that your utility might run out of water. I mean, their problem, not yours. So do you have like a discrepancy because you’re targeting the B2C markets and the ones with the problems are the B2B players.

Sabine Stuiver: Well, I think you’re absolutely right. This is one of the challenges we have. , water is very valuable, but it is very cheap in price in most places. I do have to say in Denmark, water costs 10 euros, per thousand liters. So ROI on a system like ours is five or six years.

Antoine Walter: prices in the UK, I’ve forgotten, the amount, but it was increased with 291%. Don’t pinpoint me on the number, but it is big, you know? think you’re , fully right on that. I mean, I can give you , an additional hint, which is, in Switzerland, met with some engineers, consultants that, that did a study, would it be positive ROI to build such a system in Switzerland where you can’t even get rid of your fixed costs? Meaning if you put such a system, you bolt it down, you’re still going to pay your fixed costs on your utility.

So it’s. reduces the theoretical ROI. And still in Switzerland, with the cost of Switzerland, it is still profitable to take these kinds of systems, the point is when the prices are so harmless, if I’m saving my water, I’m saving one, 2 percent of my monthly budgets.

I mean, it’s nothing compared to my internet costs. It’s nothing compared to my Netflix or Disney plus costs. So

Sabine Stuiver: people don’t even know what they’re paying. what is your water bill? Nobody knows. Most people don’t know. that differs where you live and what is happening. , we’ve known that for many, many years. And if you look at the studies, everything that is happening right now with, climate change and water scarcity and drought and migration because of drought and whatever.

That has been predicted for a long, long, long, long time. unfortunately, , 2 billion people in the world know exactly the value of water. Those are the ones that don’t have it and mainly, women and girls traveling all day looking for it and don’t even get to build up a life.

has always looked so far away from us in the global North. You know, it was always the global South, but now it’s here, now it’s here. Now we can’t build homes. Now we can’t run businesses. There’s not enough water. Now, unfortunately, there are so many different stakeholders. And as you say, as the consumer, because for us, you open the tap.

Comes out, you know, you flush the toilet, it’s gone. There is a whole system around it, which is costing a lot of money. And energy and everything and wasting resources. but we are not paying for that. So we don’t have any, any idea. So yes, in that sense, we need to educate people. But I can tell you what is going to happen.

And what is happening is because it is becoming more scarce. It’s becoming more expensive. and it’s becoming more restrictive, , and this is one of the things that we’re finding that, , we have early adopters, which do it intrinsically, I think 5 percent of population.

realizes that we are all responsible, not looking at somebody else to do it for us. No, we all have to do it. And we want to do it. And we understand that it may need some investment or some change in behavior, but we want to do that. 5 percent in the world is like Trump, I hope not like Trump, but don’t give up, you know, and spend and do and whatever.

And because it’s all yours to take. I’m talking about that very large, big group in the middle, 90%. And those are the people. And that’s why also we created a desirable consumer good with beautiful design. We just, launched our collection 2025, so you can customize your system, that’s the people that we want to approach Because we have to make it super easy for them to have a system in their house. They don’t even know it is there. and you don’t need to change your behavior, yet you save money, energy, etc. And, of course, then it is the investment part. , we know how to get that flywheel going.

And, for example, in the Netherlands, we’ve seen that with solar panels. We need top down. So we have empowered people and organizations bottom up to do this themselves, the early adopters, But for mass market, what we need now is top down.

We need building codes changed so that water saving becomes mandatory in the building codes. then, to incentivize people with subsidies, with the AT, reduction, et cetera. And what we’re seeing in many areas, if you work with several people, the beneficiaries, the stakeholders are many.

If water utilities , can do more with less, that has a value. If wastewater treatment, companies have to, treat less and the peak, which is always in the morning when everybody goes to have a shower and goes to the toilet. , take away that peak, because the shower water is taken away from that.

That has a value. So you can also, in building whole precincts, you can have like, we are doing it in England, you have a reduction, every building that saves water, has a massive reduction on the, connection to the infrastructure, basically. So if you do it like this, and to give you an idea, to build an apartment, recycle ready, meaning that the plumbing is just, that’s what we advocate at least build everything from now on recycle ready so that machine can come in later or in anybody’s machine, not just hydro loop.

I’m on a higher mission. it costs 280 euros we have a, you know, proper research done 280 euros per apartment to have the plumbing done that little bit different so a water recycler can go in there.

Antoine Walter: I’m fully with you. Don’t get me wrong. have more of a positioning question and because you mentioned solar panel, it’s a very, very fair comparison. I mean, we know the similarities between the water sector and the energy sector, yet there is a 10 X factor in cost. So if I’m going to energy, which is produced on my roof, I’m saving 10 times more, so my ROI is more tangible.

What I’m getting from what you’re explaining is that you will be setting B2C in the sense that you have a 2025 collection. it looks really cool. So the B2C element is strong, but the means to get that adopted are B2B2C. You need regulations, you need, economic incentives, you need VAT and stuff like that. So my question here is, did you take it by the North face by saying you want to have your devices in people’s house?

Another approach could have been to say, when they do these new developments, maybe they can take 10, 20, 30 homes, collect them and connect them together and do like a distributed microgrid approach, which is then still sustainable. A shorter loop, but on a bigger scale than an hydro loop

Sabine Stuiver: that’s much more expensive. That is basically, bottom down, more expensive than if you do it by house. And also, if you do it per apartment, per building. Of course, what we do, we have a Hydroloop, you know, we also do a lot more Hydroloop Cascade, which is a modular, scalable, made to measure solution.

So, this is actually a number of Hydroloop units all working together. for example, in hotels, in, sports clubs, in, student housing that we’re doing, in the basement. There is this larger kind of factory of hydroloop units, collectively treating all the water, which is then collectively being used for the toilets or for the greenery outside or for the green roof or whatever.

But all that is still much, much cheaper than if you do it on a,the way that you suggested many, many years ago there was this, hill area here in the Netherlands, and they did the whole area with double piping.

And somewhere, somewhere made a cross connection. They never found where it was and the whole project was failed. And if you do that in the house, you know, if you do this on micro scale, it’s very easy to solve.

And just also for the consumer, you are reusing your own water,

you don’t have the elements that it’s what your neighbor peed. It’s what you peed. I mean, I’m taking Pete’s not the right example. pee under the shower, you know.

Antoine Walter: show it. that’s the start of the company in 2017. And you explain how, from the get go you identified the West coast of the U S as being An interesting market, I guess, the regulations in San Francisco, where you have to reuse, water, if you have a building from a certain size go in exactly the direction you’re describing.

Product Launch at CES 2020

Antoine Walter: So I guess that makes sense that you’re launching your product at CES 2020 in Las Vegas. So that’s your target markets. That’s also like the Mecca if you’re going for tech products. So you’re positioning your product as a tech element and you’re going into core markets. Can you tell me the story of that product launch?

Sabine Stuiver: We were one of 50, Dutch, tech startups that were selected by a tech leap in the Netherlands. Yes. and we went on a mission together with 50 companies. So this is in collaboration with the Dutch ministry of economic affairs. we had a really good preparation, which was great, you know, so how to present yourself to, investors,

how to be more American because we are a bit too, you know, too Dutch. So that was really, really great. And we had to make a lot of collateral, et cetera, et cetera. And I can actually explain to you that I was so exhausted, we were both so exhausted and we, because we had initially already applied for an award and we’ve won that award.

The creme de la creme award. No, no, no, that’s at the end. No, no, no, I’m building it up. Best of sustainability, eco design and smart energy. They have like 16 categories, then you get nominees and we were the best of that category. So that was bang. So we got an extra spot on the CES.

So we traveled, not with one, but with two hydro loop display units. I’m talking 45 kilograms each. they come in three pieces, but I mean it’s a hell of a lot of luggage. It’s one meter eighty by 85 by 80 by 34. so this was our luggage and we traveled to CES I actually collapsed in the plane and actually woke up and there was this stewardess trying to wake me up.

This was pure exhaustion. I actually arrived in Las Vegas in a wheelchair, honestly. And I had all my checkups and everything and I was fine, but I was just exhausted. and then when the show started the evening before, all the journalists are there and they get to hear what is, , the tech trends to watch out for.

And we were on the screen. Somebody made a picture and said, you’re on the screen. from the moment that we were there and we had, as I said, two areas where we were standing, or we had our unit, but we were with our own Dutch group and we had quite a nice spot with an open area. From the moment it opened, I’m honest, we had non stop 40 people at our booth.

I had 20 film camera crews per day. I was just on Duracell, you know, I was just this kind of, you know, on the batteries. It was incredible. And then Time Magazine came to us and said, you know, we voted you in our top, 12 for products of the whole show. There are 20, 000 products.

And then Newsweek came in and we were in the top 25 and then somebody came around and said, well, we are from the best of CES and we want to nominate you for best startup, best sustainable product. Oh, and by the way, there is an overall price, meaning the best of the best of all 20, 000 products. And then, you know, and I still you guys see it, I can never say it without goose pimples because it was just so powerful.

It was just, so it was crazy there. people came to us and said, may we invest in you already? it was just absolutely crazy. And then on the final day, I get this email and it says, congratulations. And you’re not allowed to say anything because they announce it later.

Congratulations. You’ve won best sustainable product. Best out of company and you are the overall best product of the whole show. And this meant not the e car from Sony, not the foldable tablet from Samsung, but hydro loop. And we were five people, we were five staff at a home office here.

Antoine Walter: Ha, ha, ha, ha.

Sabine Stuiver: And of course then it literally went bang. And we were written about, we were interviewed, we were in television all over the world. We were on, the eight o’clock news. It was absolutely incredible. And then maybe interesting to know, thousands and thousands of emails came into our email box and just exploded from consumers to people who wanted to be our partner, who wanted to invest, who wanted interviews, who wanted to film us.

And we didn’t even have a CRM system. So, it took us a few months to get that kind of, uh, in space. And then, investors were lining up. nothing could have been better, because we really needed to scale then. this was January 2020.

And we all know what happened in February, March 2020. The world shut down. So actually what happened soon after that is that, we have lots of requests and we needed to scale the company anybody who had shown interest, their money was evaporating on the stock exchange and other companies that invested in, they needed to make sure because nobody knew what was going to happen.

can call it a thrilling experience.

Antoine Walter: retrospect, if you had been like one or two years earlier, you would have been the perfect lockdown product. I’m trapped at home. I have time on my hands and now it’s time for me to reuse my water. Well, let me do it. but yeah, you can’t remake history.

Sabine Stuiver: I can tell you, I always look from the other side. two of the CESs afterwards. I think so. Yeah. We’re online. So I’m very happy. I didn’t win best of first CES online because that was a totally different ball game. Yeah.

Antoine Walter: you win all these awards and you get all that press attention and mainstream attention. And, that is, I have to say a common traits in all the companies, which are , in your very specific niche of the water world, which is that, People realize it could save them at home and how it seems to go in the right direction and mainstream media do their job on that.

They don’t do it on all the categories of water, but on that category of water, they do it. But if I understand at the point in time where you get that, maximum exposure, you’re five in a garage, which means at

Sabine Stuiver: No, I’m in office, not in the garage.

Antoine Walter: okay, five in

Sabine Stuiver: Yeah.

Antoine Walter: office.

Scaling Up Amidst Challenges

Antoine Walter: Five in an office, but that means that you don’t nearly have the capacity to deliver industrially at the scale of what that attention , is bringing to you.

So how did you build the rocket ship while in the air? do you start? that’s the time where you’re raising your series a, which I get got more complicated Because of COVID, but still you have to do everything and juggle all the bells and keep them in the air. how do you put things in a row and how do you build a

Sabine Stuiver: roadmap?

, maybe just explain the stages that we’ve had in the company. first, in the early stages, it was just starting the company and the technology development. And that was actually up to going to CES. the focus was on developing, innovative water technology.

Sabine Stuiver: Then up until about the beginning of 2022, we were building the foundation and we had the first serious funding. in summer, 2020, after CES and all the investors kind of retreated, we had to look out of the box, because the normal type of investors, we’re not interested.

So we actually found some money in our private network and that was the first investment round we had a serious investment. And then we had a bank loan that matched that investment. So with that money, so in the summer of 2020, we actually, managed to start to build a foundation. solidifying the base, the groundwork for, future growth.

of course, we, refined products, created more products. And started to scale operations.

Scaling Production & Preparing for Commercial Growth

Sabine Stuiver: and also, we have production in the Netherlands, so we started to scale that as well, which is a shared smart factory in the Netherlands. And then from then on, we are, strengthening the foundation, preparing for commercial growth, but it’s preparing for commercial growth.

So to give you an idea.

Sabine Stuiver: , we’ve worked on, you know, getting the production lines ready, redesigning the products for high scale manufacturing to reduce costs, adjusting the production processes, and develop the first version of our training program. in, in this whole stage, you know, we’ve delivered about 800 systems worldwide, , all of this was still like a testing phase.

You know, this was crucial for testing the processes and learning from real world use all over the world. Gaining product acceptance, obtaining necessary certifications . All of this was preparing for scaling up. And now, we are in the phase, we call it extend and expand, which is, scaling up , commercial growth.

We’re ready for it. We have a solid foundation in place. you know, and we’re leveraging our findings and refined products and, making a bigger impact,

Global Partner Network

Sabine Stuiver: this is just to give you the framework, we foresee and we are ready , now we’re going to be selling through our partner network that we have built up over the years.

So we have 130 partners in 50 countries. As I said, some of them are the Sydney waters. Some of them are, companies that sell sustainable products for homes, et cetera. And through that partner network. They are marketing, selling, installing and servicing our products and we are training them and we’re giving them all the backing, of course.

We have offices here in the Netherlands. We have teams in US, Middle East and Australia. And how we are scaling further is that we will be announcing a partnership very soon. With a strategic, partner and that will probably be the first, private label that we will be doing as well.

So we have our own product line and then we will be doing, private label and Finally, which will take a few more years, we will be doing, licensing deals as well,

Antoine Walter: , I’m curious about, Your scope, because just answered the scope question. So , my question is more about why does scope, what do I mean by scope? in the early stages, you have to do everything just because you’re building your sacrificial concept and you have to build a prototype, show that it’s working, find your first customer and , have your proof of concept and then scale from that, that I get it, the parts where.

Then you can take different roads as when you do the scale up, you can say, well, our core is in the way we design the system, in which case maybe manufacturing is not our forte and we should outsource manufacturing. or you say our core is that we understand the customer needs so we can do the marketing and, the go to markets in an absolutely unparalleled fashion, but

let’s outsource all the technical parts and let people , just build our stuff. And if I understand you’re right, you’re doing rather the opposite, which is that you have your distribution channels, which would be taking care of the sales and the localization in the countries. But the core, which you consider core of your company is expanding the production capability up to a point where you might even produce for others.

no, no, no, no, no. I understood you,

Sabine Stuiver: then I didn’t know. No, , we partner with a factory shared smart factory. and so this is not our factory. And so this is actually brilliant because , we don’t have the masses yet, so, but we can scale. , so our core is the, design basically, you know, designing and we have a partner to manufacture.

That in due time, we may manufacture ourselves. Yes. And if we have private label, et cetera, that will be our strategic, partners. that will want to, produce themselves because they have their own product line and then they are adding this to their own product line. But what we have done because we are, and again, this was due to COVID, during COVID, you may remember that, shipping became extremely expensive, you know, tenfold of what it normally was.

Decentralized Assembly Line

Sabine Stuiver: it made us realize even more that the carbon footprint, shipping our products was quite high , and because they are empty tanks, so we’re shipping a lot of air, we decided we have to do this differently. So what we have created and also which is ready right now is a decentralized assembly line.

So actually in the Netherlands, in our factory, we are now pretending. that we have, one part is in Emmen. This is the, basically all the, subcomponents , for the system, that are being created there and the like high tech, technology parts. And then if you walk to the other side of the room, there is the final assembly line.

And that can be anywhere in the world. This is our creation. It’s a factory in a box, we call it. basically there, everything gets assembled. we are looking at three areas to start with, but we are hoping, and we think that within several years, we will have many more and to find partners for that, that where our market is.

We will then bring the assembly line there, , where we will be working with local people. So usually there is also like incentives if you are, you know, setting up your company there. we’re hiring local people, then it’s made in America or made in UAE or whatever. do the final assembly there and the testing there.

And so that is what we have created, but we will do this with partners. Our people will go there for three months to six months to have the whole setup running and then we part. So Hydroloop is creating the products and creating all the facilities for all our, you call them distribution, but we call them partners because distribution for me is like, I get a box and I sell it again.

And this is far more than this, because they also responsible for the installation and the after surface. we supply all the training for that in all languages.

Antoine Walter: I mentioned to you that discussed with, the CEO of Geberitz just before we started recording. what he was mentioning is that one of the hurdles he was seeing to adopting, in his case, a smart flush. but they have been venturing in similar waters to yours in the past. But overall, message was that the hurdle to adoption are the plumbers and all the ones which are installing the field.

So what is your trick to get them as partners when others struggle to get them on board? .

Sabine Stuiver: right in a sense, and of course in the beginning it has been difficult, and we’re not there yet. But what we do is the following. because of CES, but also because we were filmed and then this documentary, Brave Blue World, was sold to Netflix, which was October 2020, and still to date, every week we get inbound from that.

And So our visibility has been quite tremendous all over the world. so basically, potential partners, we now have 130, but potential partners are still finding us, right now. But also with marketing now in areas where we see, hey, this is a very interesting market for us, like Catalonia in Spain, for example, Florida in America.

Antoine Walter: We will do some more marketing to actually reach partners and saying, Hey, you can become a partner of ours. Just to be sure I understand that right. That means that most of your partners. Watch Netflix documentary, find you incredibly cool and reach out.

Sabine Stuiver: Even we have investors. One of our investors called me, saw the documentary and said, I want to invest in your company. Of course it took some time, but they did. what we’re seeing is that, the world is our oyster.

There are so many areas and people wanting our products, but we don’t have partners there. So what we’re doing right now is the following.

Training & Partner Programs

Sabine Stuiver: we have created a training program. It’s almost finished. Whereby, if you as a customer, let’s say you are in Costa Rica somewhere and you are a B2C and you say, Hey, I want this device in my home there is no partner around you.

We find a partner for you, or we contact your local plumber and we say, Hey, who is your local plumber? And what we do is that we say, Hey, you can become our partner. This is your first client. Of course, they get a margin for, buying the product through them. We give them a training. We even give them an incentive, financial incentive to do the training.

The training is no rocket science. Every plumber can do it. And then as soon as they have done the training, they’re an accredited Hydroloop installer. and then they’ve had one client and then they can do the next. And then it’s a business model. this is how we are now creating more and more dots, the world, whereby we are, enticing, these people and we have a whole platform for our partners.

, because we can’t do it all at once, but we’re just starting partner programs to kind of really get more of a community. We have several partners now in countries working together, for example, as well. for them, , basically it’s a business.

It’s not just a sustainability thought, although many of them have that idea, but most of the time, you know, it’s good business. One of our partners, for example, he was in solar and he said, there’s so many players now in solar. This is the next new thing.

Antoine Walter: Makes sense. It starts with impact, continues with business and business is part of sustainability. it sounds like a growth loop and where it’s interesting is that I looked up. your advertised positions. I looked up the type of people you’re hiring and the type of people you hired, and you are a very consistent outlier in the water sector, even compared to other companies, which are in similar lanes than yours, in the sense that you’re hiring sales, marketing, , and even a growth hacker, which is the first ever time I’ve seen such an offer for,a water company. I would be on your side and I would fully agree with you, but. We have to acknowledge that that is the vast minority of companies doing that in the water world. So do they all get it wrong? What’s your approach to that? And why do you want to be so strongly growth marketing focused?

Marketing & Growth Strategy

Sabine Stuiver: Well, I think, what makes us stand out is that, we have created a desirable consumer good. , some people say, you know, we look like the Tesla Powerwall , so it is that kind of market. And look at Apple, you know, and we all want, we have one and then the new one comes out and then, we want another one.

So, but in water tech, very often,

changing my hydro loop once I’ve installed it, because you,no, no, no, you can just change the front. This is the collection 2025. Collection 2025 is that you can customize the front panel. So the height, it’s the, that shape, and you can customize that. So the tanks will be one color. And you can combine new fronts and we will be coming out with new fronts and you can customize it.

So it’s not going to be a new system all the time, But in water tech, many times, and in tech anyway, people find it very difficult, to sell what they’re having, because it’s also very difficult to understand. And I think what we’re doing very well is that people understand what we’re doing and what it is.

It’s not so difficult to explain. so most of the time in water tech, the solutions are technical solutions, and they are big and bulky and, you need an extra shed to kind of have machine in it. And what we wanted to do is say, Hey, it has to be compact, self cleaning, lower maintenance, IoT connected, it comes with an app, of course, everything is a work in progress.

So we have a new app coming out very shortly. We want to do gamification in the next round for kids so that they can, game against each other, who’s saving the most water and, all that kind of stuff. We have so many ideas. it’s a consumer good. And so therefore marketing is very important.

And basically now with the growth hacker, we’re seeing that, digital marketing that is a real specialization. we really want to now go to certain areas and target certain, groups. So, for example, recently, we did, a targeted group.

We did campings in the south of France, so camping owners in the south of France and in northern Spain. Why? Because we created a, sea container with hydroloop units inside it. you could have, a certain amount of them in them. So this would be an insulated sea container with air conditioning, et cetera.

And basically all these campings, many of these campings are having massive water scarcity problems and they cannot water their lawns. Catalonia, there is no swimming pool field in, Andalusia as well. All swimming pools. are empty. This has a tremendous effect on the hospitality.

So we approached all these campings and said, Hey, you don’t need a permit for one of those sea containers. You can just put it next to your building connections are quite easy and you can recycle your water and you can use it for, purposes that you want to use it for. so next to the partners that we have, we go and localize areas, and this is where in Florida, now they have a state rebate.

, if you are a home builder, and you build it with a water recycler in it, you get a state rebate of up to 2, 400. Then there is the Florida Green Star, which also offers, in certain areas, they say if you install a water recycler, we give you another thousand dollars.

So what we’re doing now is that we’re educating all the builders in Florida with a digital marketing campaign, saying, hey, did you realize that this, because it’s since January, these people don’t know it’s there. And they get a density bonus if they build a hundred homes with water recycling in it.

With literally, they get all these benefits, the financial benefits. So basically almost all cost of the investment is there and they can still sell the home and they can get a price for the water recycler, they don’t have to give it for free, but it doesn’t cost them hardly anything and they can build 35 percent extra on that plot of land because they’ve done that.

Antoine Walter: a marketing perspective, I don’t try to compare you to others, just because I believe it’s a kind of blue ocean you’re in, so it’s not really competition. It’s more. other peoples in the same lane, but if I look at the US companies are centering on the US and sometimes even focusing on one coast of the US, the Australian company are focusing on Australia and you are going a bit into

Sabine Stuiver: We’re everywhere.

Antoine Walter: How do you handle that? Are you consequently bigger than them and trying to build something consequently bigger than them as well? Or is it just because you don’t sleep at night?

Sabine Stuiver: I don’t sleep a lot. No, I haven’t for the last years. many of us, because we’re a team, we’re 40 people now , and growing. everybody tells you, you know, Oh, you have to focus. You have to focus. Well, where, well, where, you know, we thought, for example, that certain areas, South Africa, everybody said, you’ve got to go to South Africa.

Brilliant. It’s not a market, not yet, you know, because there is only a very small percentage of people that have money. Then we have inflation of the South African rent. So if we would have focused really there, we wouldn’t have been anywhere. and so I can tell you many more areas.

, of course, we’ve learned over the years. so first after, CES and Netflix, bang, we were all over the place. And then, of course, we started to see, okay, which are our platinum regions? So now we have regions, platinum, gold, silver, etc. So we can have more focus on certain areas.

and these are the areas where , there isn’t legislation that is blocking it because there is still lots and lots of areas where it’s not allowed standards and legislation are always lagging behind the innovations. so we’re focusing now on the areas where it’s possible, where people want it.

then, as I said, either we have partners there or we are creating awareness. So we have more partners there. but yes, sometimes, 5 a. m., 6 a. m., the first calls with Australia all day, and then in the evening until 7, 8 p. m., your last calls, with the U. S. yeah, but that’s part of this, type of a company, and that is also, the people that work for us.

So you have to have a certain mentality, a startup scale up mentality. it’s not the bank where you’re working.

Antoine Walter: You said 40 people, working currently for you and growing plus your partner network.

Future Vision & Profitability

Antoine Walter: Are you profitable today?

Sabine Stuiver: No, no, not yet. So that’s why, you know, we did our investment round, recently. what we aim to be by on top of my head, I can’t remember, I think next year. but of course we have a, high tech, product that is implemented a lot of the time in new construction.

So that timeline is quite lengthy, but if you look at our pipeline now, if you look at, all the projects that are coming up, hockey stick is moving upwards, it took a long time, you know, because we were talking two or three years and sometimes four years from talking about a project and actually delivering our products.

Antoine Walter: I told you that I spent a bit of time by coincidence with one of your investors. Um, as it was, Leading a panel where Invest NL was a speaker, if I’m right, Invest NL just announced that they are raising or that they got another billion to spend.

Sabine Stuiver: Yeah.

Antoine Walter: So fund one, they invested in you fund two, I would expect them to be part of your next, Major fundraising, because if I’m trying to add on everything you shared about what you’re building, it sounds like you will need to do another big boom with. I got that you’re having partners for the manufacturing, but still, if you’re having this manufacturing concept where you have a portion of the way to do which is still developed by you. And then you start up the manufacturing’s left and right. You will need to have CapEx to do that. So do you have a major fundraising on the horizon? Is InvestNL potentially the lead investor again in that new fundraising or what’s the status for you right now?

Sabine Stuiver: we’re currently still raising 3 million and, we’re hoping to be able to close that very soon. So then that series, B is finished. that is done with Invest NL and we also have some other investors in there. I’m not the CFO, of course I’m in the management team.

I think, we should be profitable, but depending, of course, if we’re going to have, these central assembly lines in other areas. it is most likely that we will be doing another round, We have quite an interesting line up already, people, organizations, of course, that would be potentially, very good ones for the next round.

But, I prefer not to say any more about that.

Antoine Walter: you could go profitable. and have something which works. But that’s not the way you impact at the scale that you want to do. , what I’m saying is that you’re 40, you could go to 50 and maybe 60 and then settle down and stop taking the calls at five in the morning and 11 in the evening.

but it sounds like that’s not what you aim to build. It sounds to me like what you aim to build is bigger than that, because the impact you’re aiming for is bigger than that, which leads me to my closing question for this deep dive, which is simple. Instead of me putting words in your mouth, what are you building?

Sabine Stuiver: It’s a mission, but at the end of the day, we’re still a company, you know, and we have investors, so we need to become profitable. it is our aim and it is our vision and we really strongly, believe.

That within 10, 15 years time, , every new house, every new building will have to have a water recycler in it, standard. That that will be, demanded for by building regulations, et cetera, because we are seeing that happening already. And this is due to, climate change and population growth and urbanization and water scarcity.

So, within so many years it is standard in every house. That recyclers in general becomes a standard item in every, every building. Like air conditioning and whatever of course we will transform from vision leader, which is how we are perceived right now, because we are putting water recycling all over the world on the agendas and changing standards and making sure that everywhere, it’s not working right now yet.

We were at COP, we were at Water Week United Nations, where we are presenting our vision and saying, Hey, let’s not reinvent the wheel everywhere. If you don’t have a standard, please accept somebody else’s standard so that we can keep moving because we don’t have time to waste. This is not from a commercial prospect, but it’s in the sense of that we don’t have time to waste with regard to water and the scarcity and implementing the solutions that are already here today.

And that we change from vision leader and become market leader.

Antoine Walter: I don’t know if you’ve read the latest book of, David Sedlak and Peter Gleick. It’s two different books, one from Peter Gleick and one from David Sedlak, but they share one, I

Sabine Stuiver: I should.

Antoine Walter: get you. The trick is to take the plane when you take the plane, sometimes

Sabine Stuiver: I work.

Antoine Walter: Okay. but they share a vision in common in the two books, which is that they see someone down the line that new houses will have the type of recycling that you’re describing, and that’s the electric car, as it doesn’t have a reservoir anymore for people.

Petrol would have a reservoir for water and that the little bit of water, which would bring in the makeup loop would come from the car. And hence you would in that kind of Jetson ish future, you would not need to have a central utility at all anymore. So that’s probably not for 10 or 15 years down the line, but at least the part of the vision, which they share with you is that, homes and new homes should become better stewards of their water.

Sabine Stuiver: and then it’s not an impact companies. Like you’re simply the market leader. I share the vision. sounds like super cool. does. and just for me personally, I have a holiday home in the South of France, in my village. We’ve had a drought for seven years. I have an organic swimming pool and we are actually , changing our home right now. So we are collecting, harvesting. we’re making it completely autarkic.

So, you know, we are harvesting water from air. Okay. Can be done. Solutions are there. So I bought one of those machines. we’re collecting rainwater and we’re recycling it with HydroLoop. and it can be used for my garden, for my toilets, etc. And I think, yeah, more and more we’ll be moving. It’s still now, a bit early days, but we will be going more that way.

Yes.

Antoine Walter: I’m not opening the atmospheric water box because if we do that, then we’re here for another hour.

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Rapid fire questions:

Antoine Walter: I suggest you switch to the rapid fire questions, if that’s fine with you.

Sabine Stuiver: Yeah.

Both: It’s time for the Questions!

Antoine Walter: What is the toughest challenge in your opinion for water tech startups?

Sabine Stuiver: Changing the status quo.

Antoine Walter: What would be your best single piece of advice for the founders and managers of the about 1000 early stage water startups?

Sabine Stuiver: Never give up. stay persistent and passionate about your mission. Maybe everybody says it, but it’s so true.

Antoine Walter: Actually, when I want to be a contrarian, I’m giving the opposite advice because 86 percent of water startups survive. And that’s a super high survivor rate, which might mean that sometimes people hold on to their idea for a bit too long. And that’s not me saying it’s that’s Paul O’Callaghan. So if it’s good for making Netflix movies, he’s.

Sabine Stuiver: Yeah. No, but I understand what you’re saying. if you’re pulling on a dead horse, you have to stop, and so you have to test and make sure you have something good, but if you have something good usually when you get a lot of resistance, you may have something very good.

And that’s what we’ve had.

Antoine Walter: Well, I’m going to give it a little bit of a teaser here for the people who are still with us by that late stage of the podcast. But that’s something we’ll discuss with Megan Glover from 120 Water. Closing the teaser, what’s the drop of knowledge you wish more investors knew about the water sector,

Sabine Stuiver: That water is the blue gold. water tech innovation is crucial for a sustainable future and not just the future. Because the future is right now. And it offers a significant ROI.

Antoine Walter: what was your most unexpected partnership and what did it bring you?

Sabine Stuiver: You know, I have no idea. I mean, so many amazing things have happened. You know, what do you want me to say? Yeah, Netflix, of course it was amazing, but. I don’t know. Too many to mention. it’s a privilege. I told you I was retired. so I could be hanging out in that house in the south of France or somewhere else.

And yes, it’s tough. and sometimes I wish, I was in that house in the south of France, but it’s a privilege because of everything that we encounter and the people we meet and what we do.

Antoine Walter: I said that, , short question, short answers, but you see, it’s already my second digression, so sorry for that, but you mentioned the people you meet, and I feel like I wouldn’t do a right job as a podcaster. If I was not mentioning a fellow podcaster, how did you meet Will Sarney?

Sabine Stuiver: yeah, I mean, of course he’s, he’s a guru. I mean, so I was looking up. to him, you know, thinking, wow, you know, in the beginning we were such an outsider. I can’t remember, but we started to, I think maybe through Tom Fraber because they’re doing a podcast together.

I know Tom, since we first went to the first Aquatech

anyway, and then we kind of got talking and he’s with Will and he’s such a great guy. And, you know, and then of course, for his water foundry fund, to have invested in us as well, it’s, it’s really cool.

And, you know, with these investors also, this is not just money. You know, what these investors, all of our investors, what they bring to the table, including invest in L is their network is their knowledge, so it’s a collaboration. It’s not just pure money. And with will, of course, we’re very, very nicely connected.

Yes.

Antoine Walter: Super short profitability or growth?

Sabine Stuiver: Growth,

What’s the next profile you’ll hire if you haven’t found your growth hacker? No, we haven’t found the person yet, but we have a lot of interest, but let me mention it now, Growth Hacker.

Antoine Walter: When you hire, are you looking for sector experience or startup experience?

Sabine Stuiver: Well, we want professional discipline. So first is discipline, , scale up mindset, then the sector,

Antoine Walter: Opening new markets or doubling down on the existing ones?

Sabine Stuiver: doubling down on the existing ones. We have quite a few already.

Antoine Walter: What’s that tool nobody speaks about but you couldn’t live without?

Sabine Stuiver: Well, we have just integrated a whole ICT platform. So most processes, so commercial finance administration are already implemented. Multicurrency with several entities because we have Hydroloop Inc. and Limited and whatever. so we have that in house and we’re now extending that with the supply chain tools and production planning.

this is our intelligent backbone.

Antoine Walter: What is the single piece of insight your ideal customer profile needs to hear right now?

Sabine Stuiver: Yeah, I found that hard as well. Water recycling is not just eco friendly. it makes you feel good, but it’s also cost effective. It may take a bit longer than your solar panels. And also it adds value to your property if you do it now because later on we foresee you have to do it.

It’s much more expensive to do it then, than if you do it now.

Antoine Walter: , just my two cents. That one is the killer argument. You’re adding value to your property, that’s Yeah, because who can argue against that?

Sabine Stuiver: You see what’s happening now, if you’re selling a house and it’s insulated and you have solar on it, the value is so much more than if you haven’t. by the way, you know, you have that energy label where you see the colors in A, B and C and whatever, the water label is coming up.

I’ve already seen it. within certain time we will all have a water label for our buildings as well.

Antoine Walter: are you desperatelyneeding and want to raise an open call for right now?

Sabine Stuiver: Well, I said it already earlier, we don’t have time to waste with regard to water. And what we are still seeing is that Many organizations and companies are still thinking about, let’s do a pilot and let’s take a few years and let’s see how it’s going. There are so many solutions already.

We are a part of the thousand efficient solutions, which is a platform. They’re already 1500 plus, and these are commercially viable, Very good solutions that can be implemented as of today. So instead of talking about pilots and reinventing the wheel, we don’t have the time, so please look at the innovations that are already here and implement them.

That’s it.

Antoine Walter: Closing one, what can and should I do for you?

Sabine Stuiver: You’re doing it now, you know, by having asked me to be here for this interview, you know, we’re spreading more the word about who we are, what we stand for, , our slogan is to act wise and use water twice. so thank you for having given me this visibility through this, interview.

Antoine Walter: My great pleasure. If people want to follow up with you, where shall I redirect you the best?

They can find me on LinkedIn, they can find hydroloop. com on the website. We have a YouTube channel, we have info. hydroloop. com for all kinds of background, like technical information, So I think plenty. My name will be mentioned somewhere. As always, like that, all the links you just mentioned, all the places are listed in the description. So have a look there. And, I’m the testimony that we can reach out to you on LinkedIn.

Sabine Stuiver: and just Antoine, if anybody is still thinking, growth hacker, that is me, you need me on our website. You can find the news. You can find the whole profile for the growth hacker.

Antoine Walter: I’ll put the position as well in the show notes that we have a full house on that one as well. Seven, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks a lot for taking a bit more time than expected. I’m sorry about that. I mentioned I’m French that happens. And yeah, hope to talk to you again in the future to check out on your path.

Sabine Stuiver: Thank you so much, Antoine.

Other Episodes:

FREDsense: Revolutionizing Water Quality Monitoring with Biosensor Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 7 May 2025

Swirltex: Revolutionizing Wastewater Treatment with Bubbly Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 30 April 2025

Blue Foot Membranes: The Next Evolution in Water Filtration

By Antoine Walter | 16 April 2025

Echo River Capital: Pioneering the Future of Water Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 3 April 2025

1001 Fontaines: Engineering Sustainable Water Access Through Social Entrepreneurship

By Antoine Walter | 22 March 2025

Amazon’s Water Footprint: Tech Giant’s Quest for Water Sustainability

By Antoine Walter | 19 March 2025

Turing: The AI Revolution Quenching the Water Industry’s Thirst for Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 26 February 2025

Altillion: Pioneering Digital Intelligence for Water Asset Management

By Antoine Walter | 6 February 2025

Flocean: Pioneering Ocean-Based Water Solutions

By Antoine Walter | 15 January 2025

Botanical Water Technologies: Harvesting Liquid Gold from Plants

By Antoine Walter | 4 December 2024

The post This Water Tech won CES 2020: Where are they now? appeared first on (don't) Waste Water.

Surprisingly, the engine driving this transformation is not an international governmental organization but a remarkably effective charity. Let’s explore the inspiring story of how Gary White’s innovative approach is reshaping the water crisis landscape:

with Gary White – Co-Founder & CEO of Water.org & Water Equity

Resources:

Water.org’s website

Water Equity’s website

The World Bank’s “Funding a Water Secure Future“

The UN SDG 6 Data Portal

The Do’s and Don’ts of Rural Water Supply

Tom Ferguson‘s appearance on the podcast

is on Linkedin

Antoine Walter on LinkedIn

Full Video:

Water.org’s origin story

Gary White and Matt Damon founded Water.org with a bold vision: to ensure everyone in the world has access to safe water and sanitation.

Over the past 20 years, their organization has provided access to these basic necessities for one person every 10 seconds, resulting in over 66 million people benefiting from their efforts.

But what sets Water.org apart is its unique approach: instead of giving away water and sanitation solutions, they offer microloans.

The Power of WaterCredit

The concept of WaterCredit, pioneered by Gary White, involves providing small loans to individuals in need of water and sanitation facilities. These loans average around $377, with 90% of them going to women. Despite serving some of the poorest communities on the planet, these borrowers have a repayment rate of 98%. This impressive rate underscores the tremendous value these individuals place on having access to safe drinking water and sanitation, and their determination to repay the loans.

Leveraging Philanthropy

Gary White’s innovative model transforms every dollar of philanthropy into a sustainable, self-replenishing resource.

Traditionally, philanthropic dollars for water and sanitation projects were a one-time expenditure. However, by using these funds to provide microloans, Water.org has created a cycle where the same dollar can be reused multiple times.

This multiplier effect is a game-changer, enabling Water.org to expand its impact exponentially.

The “Financial Plumbing” of Water Solutions

White describes the need to create the “financial plumbing” necessary to connect those in need of water with the capital markets. This involves building a financial network that identifies viable projects, invests in them, and ensures they are sustainable.

The capital markets, theoretically infinite, find value in these projects because they create immense social and economic benefits.

Water.org is a Water Entrepreneur’s Journey

Despite the success, Gary White’s journey has not been without challenges.

The inertia and calcification of the traditional financial systems pose significant hurdles. Yet, his engineering background has equipped him with a problem-solving mindset, enabling him to navigate these complexities.

A New Approach: Water Equity and Resilience

The next evolution of Water.org’s mission is Water Equity, a fund that focuses on investing in water and climate-resilient infrastructure. This initiative aims to bridge the gap between the bottom-up demand created by microloans and the top-down need for substantial infrastructure investments.

By doing so, Water.org can address the broader systemic issues that hinder access to water and sanitation.

Measuring Success: Numbers that Speak Volumes

The impact of Water.org’s work is evident in the numbers.

With $5.5 billion in loans disbursed and 66 million people served, the organization has proven that access to water can be a profitable venture. The average cost of bringing water to one person through Water.org’s model is approximately $83.

This cost is significantly lower than traditional methods, demonstrating the efficiency and scalability of their approach.

The Broader Picture: Global Implications

If scaled globally, Water.org’s model could drastically reduce the cost of achieving universal access to water and sanitation.

The World Bank estimates that an additional $140 billion per year is needed to meet global water goals by 2030. However, if implemented at scale, Water.org’s approach could reduce this requirement by a factor of ten, making it a more feasible and sustainable solution.

The Human Element: Stories of Change

Beyond the numbers, the true impact of Water.org’s work is seen in the lives it transforms. Women who previously spent hours each day fetching water now have time to pursue education and employment.

Families can access clean water at a fraction of the cost they used to pay to water vendors, improving their economic stability and overall health.

Innovative Solutions at the Household Level

One of the most remarkable aspects of Water.org’s work is the resourcefulness and innovation demonstrated by the communities they serve. In rural areas, households use loans to implement solutions like rainwater harvesting systems, hand-dug wells, and small electric pumps.

These solutions are tailored to the specific needs and circumstances of each household, highlighting the importance of a bottom-up approach.

The Role of Partnerships: Scaling Impact

A key factor in Water.org’s success is its emphasis on partnerships. By collaborating with 140 financial institutions worldwide, the organization leverages existing networks to reach more people effectively.

These partnerships enable Water.org to scale its impact and ensure the sustainability of its projects.

The Future: A Parth to Universal Water Access

Gary White is optimistic about the future. He believes that with the right financial mechanisms in place, universal access to water and sanitation is achievable within our lifetime.

The success of Water.org serves as a proof of concept, demonstrating that with innovation, determination, and effective use of resources, we can solve one of the world’s most critical challenges.

A Model for Change

Gary White’s work through Water.org exemplifies how innovative thinking and a commitment to social impact can drive profound change. By transforming the traditional charity model into a sustainable, scalable solution, Water.org is not just providing access to water; it’s empowering individuals, improving health outcomes, and fostering economic development. Gary White, the world’s best water entrepreneur, shows us that real impact comes from combining compassion with innovation.

In a world where millions still lack access to basic necessities, Water.org’s approach offers a beacon of hope. It reminds us that with the right strategies and a bit of ingenuity, we can create a future where everyone has the water they need to thrive.

My Full Conversation with Gary White

These are computer-generated, so expect some typos

Download my Latest Book - for Free!

Antoine Walter: Hi Gary, welcome to the show.

Gary White: Thanks Antoine, great to be here.

Antoine Walter: I’ve been waiting for the day for now, at least two years. Since I read your book, The Worth of Water, but I want to go straight into it. We had this update of the word bank looking at what’s missing in terms of money so that the word gets access to water.

At the time of your book, it was 116 billion a year more that had to be invested. Now it’s updated to 140 billion per year, just because we didn’t take action. So of course 2030 is coming. Closer and we’re not meeting the goal. What’s missing is 0. 2 percent of the world’s GDP, but still the word doesn’t put that money in water.

Why?

Gary White: Well, you used to like to start off with the easy question. So it’s complex. There’s a lot of reasons for that. First of all, there’s competition for those same dollars across other sectors, other infrastructure. And a lot of that is, is much more visible. You know, you see public transit, you see roads, highways, bridges, you see telecom, and it seems to be much more visible to people than Of like the pipes that are in the ground and the sewers that are in the ground.

And so it takes some pretty significant events like you see, you know, in Cape Town or Sao Paulo or now Mexico City, in order for the attention to get focused on water and sanitation’s even harder. Also, as we look at low and middle income countries where we’re focused on with water.org and, and water. is the sense that there’s not bankable projects there, that there aren’t investments that are ready to go.

And a lot of that’s true. It is a big need in terms of water and sanitation facilities to have more skilled training, to have better business practices, to be more ready for investment. And so that holds a lot of the capital. back as well. That’s what we’re, we’re focusing on trying to close that, that financing gap.

Antoine Walter: Just to be sure I understand that one. That means that we look at the bottleneck and we think it’s the money because the money is missing. But even if more money was available, it would not be deployed because the bottleneck is somewhere down the vertical.

Gary White: It’s like an onion, right? To quote Shrek.

There’s layers to this, you gotta peel them back. The kind of proximate cause seems to be lack of financing, but why isn’t the financing there? Because you don’t have the financial returns, you don’t have the risk reward profile that’s correct. And so, that’s kind of where we’re starting to attack the problem now, as we look at kind of top down finance.

Financial Strategies for Water Access

Gary White: I think, you know, you saw in the book what we’ve really focused on a lot is bottom up finance, helping women living in poverty get access to small loans so that they can get the water and sanitation solutions that are best for them. Oftentimes that is needing about a 200 or 300 loan to pay for a connection fee to a utility so that they can get water on a regular basis at a much cheaper rate than buying it from water vendors, sometimes 15 times more per liter, buying it from a vendor than getting it from the pipe.

Well, the question then comes up like, you know, we’ve helped 66 million people create this demand from the bottom up. by getting access to small loans for water and sanitation. But what happens if the pipes aren’t there to connect to? And that’s where the top down investing needs to happen. And so we see this need to kind of complete the equation as this demand is generated from the bottom up.

And it’s generated because this is generating tremendous value for people. That’s why they want access to water. It increases their livelihoods. It lets girls go to school. It lets people be healthier. And kind of gets rid of all of these coping issues. costs that they experience. But what if when they want to connect to the utility, the water grid isn’t there?

And that’s where we’re starting to focus now more with water equity with our water and climate resilience fund. That’s the fifth fund that we have launched at water equity so that we can work on investing in that infrastructure and find the bankable deals that are going to provide the financial returns that our investors are looking for.

There’s a

Antoine Walter: lot to deconstruct. Yeah. You mentioned coping costs. I think to me that was the most marking statistic in the book. You’re showing that, I’m going to just steal your words, that it’s expensive to be poor. Yes. And that it’s 300 billion dollars a year that the world is paying because some people don’t have access to water.

So it is, it is. a pure cash positive move to give access to people to water and still we don’t do it.

Scaling Water Solutions Globally

Antoine Walter: I’ll go back to the number of people you’ve helped, but if I got the statistics right from your presentation, 75 percent of the people you’ve helped are in rural areas. Yes. To which infrastructure do you connect in these places?

Because mostly it’s not existing. So you have this kind of chicken and egg. Where do you start?

Gary White: It is kind of a split. So you think what’s defined as rural in India, for instance, and oftentimes there are scattered houses around kind of a center, you know, a panchayat, they call it. In those situations, there is this ability to have a centralized water storage tank with a pump to then have a distribution network that covers those areas.

But beyond that, you get to a certain point, you’re right, that they’re so rural that you’re not going to have a centralized network. And that’s where kind of the beauty of the water credit program comes in because our financial Financial partners around the world are lending for whatever solutions households think are best for them.

So in very rural areas, you see people using rainwater harvesting, for instance. So they can take out a loan for a tank and guttering so that they can capture water from their, their roofs. They can take out a loan for a small pump and sink a well. There’s some low cost ways to do borehole and hand dug wells.

I was just in Indonesia, uh, last week and I saw, you know, several people. Were taking out loans so that they could make their hand dug wells deeper. Because of drought there, these wells are starting to go dry, and so people will take out a loan to dig a deeper well to line it, to make it more serviceable for them over time.

It’s incredible how resourceful and innovative people. are in these conditions because they need water, right? They have to have water every day or else they’re not going to survive. And the question is, how do you kind of break down the barriers for them between what they need and, and water? And that’s what we’re trying to do by saying, look, here’s some capital.

You guys know what you want. You know that you want a hand dug well here and you need a loan for that. Or this person over here wants a rainwater harvesting system, or this one, you know, wants a little bigger loan and they’re going to put an electric pump to get water and build a tank. And maybe they’re going to also then use that water to create a business.

I met women in India who once they had water, they started making these cinder blocks out of kind of the local materials that they had there, so they had started a business because of that. So I think we fail to imagine how much value is created for people by water and how they can turn that into a means of production to boost their household income.

And this is why these loans get repaid at a rate of 98%.

Creating Sustainable Water Infrastructure

Antoine Walter: That’s the decisive thing, which is you are loaning. Money to some of the poorest people on earth, more or less without background credit check and they repay you at a 98 percent rate. So that means it is simply profitable to get access to water, which is a difficult message to bring across.

Gary White: Yes.

Antoine Walter: You have not started that way. You have a history of being part of the water decade of having been doing like NGO, more of a traditional fashion before you did that pivot, which got you to get qualified by Tom Ferguson. When he was on that microphone as probably the best water entrepreneur. How do you get that shift?

What nudges you to go toward a credit and say that is the right approach?

Gary White: I’m not a finance guy by training. I have three engineering degrees, right? So to me, the benefit in the engineering degrees is that you’re taught how to think. You’re taught to find the problem, diagnose the problem, and then kind of match the solution to the problem.

To me, that is what drove me, that, that mindset when we started an NGO that was about drilling wells and basically raising philanthropy, drilling a well, giving the project away and moving on. And then you, you look at that solution and you compare it to the problem, right? And it’s pretty quick to emerge that there’s no way that there’s going to be enough charity in the world ever to solve that problem.

And so you’re left with this conundrum, like what do you do? Do you bury your in the sand and keep doing more well drilling? Or do you like Try to innovate your way out of it. And I was fortunate at the same time to be getting insights from poor women around the world. You know, I was traveling the world, sitting with women in their communities, visiting them in their households, just trying to understand how did they cope with their water poverty.

And they all cope, right? Because today, everyone in the world who woke up Today. Got water somewhere. It’s just a question of how much they were paying for that. And in terms of their time, in terms of their health, in terms of their girl’s future with their education, in terms of money, hard capital costs.

I did my, my research for my graduate thesis in Honduras, and I saw people there who were paying 25 percent of their income to purchase water from vendors. So you. get these insights that women are already paying for water and that there’s not going to be enough charity in the world to do this, but then how do you nudge this financial system, this financial infrastructure towards the poor?

And that’s where we don’t make these loans. We’ve never made a loan. What we’ve done is gone out and nudged the system, nudged those who are already doing microfinance, those institutions that already have a banking relationship with some of the poorest people, and we said to them, look, there is a product here.

Now you’re loaning for sewing machines, you know, and a woman sews clothes and she has cash flow by the end of the week. You’re loaning for a cow, we have cash flow by the end of the week selling the milk. And what they didn’t understand is, like, how this could be a loan product that would actually be a business or generate money for them.

So they didn’t trust that this would be a loan product that would work. And what we did, we used our philanthropic capital to say, look, we’ll de risk this for you. We’ll provide some guarantees. We’ll help you do the market research. We’ll help you understand that there is a product here. And once we broke through that barrier and these microfinance institutions, MFIs, saw that there was a loan product there, that’s when we understood that like there is the potential.

to tap the capital markets in a way that could be beyond philanthropy. Again, using philanthropy as a catalyst to set in motion the market correcting work that needed to be done so that now 66 million people have availed themselves of these loans through our partner network of 140 financial institutions around the world.

Again, this gets back to one more theme and that is partnership. It’s like we were not going to go out and start a bank. in every country that we’re working in, it’s like, how do we get those right partnerships in place so that can happen at the local level? And that was then completing the picture of the journey from like drilling wells and start to finally match the magnitude of the solution to the magnitude of the problem with the capital markets.

Future Goals and Challenges

Antoine Walter: I have two questions on the 66 million. The first is simply a big number question. If we look at what countries do, what different institutions do, what different places do, I would tend to believe that. as a single organization, the fact that you brought access to water to 66 million people probably puts you in the top Mm-Hmm.

somewhat, if not simply on the top position. Yeah. Mm. How do you look at that? Mm-Hmm? Is it a positive sign that you’re doing incredibly well or is it quite a concerning that you’re a bit alone? Yeah. In that bracket,

Gary White: I don’t wanna measure us. by how we’re doing relative to others. Everybody is pitching in, you know, all hands on deck kind of approach to this.

I want to measure our success by, yes, the number of people we reach, but also how fast we’re closing the gap between everyone getting water and where we are now. And to me, that. is the only way to look at the problem and to challenge yourself and to innovate. We’re here at the Blue Tech Forum and there are a lot of tech solutions that are being innovated and those are important.

We need technology in this area. But despite my three engineering degrees, I’ve come at it from the choke point of Finance, and we need to drive more capital into this so that there is capital to invest in these aquapreneurs, these people who are out there innovating their starve for capital as well.

What we’re trying to do is to bring so much more capital into the market in a way that can invest in those types of startups and entrepreneurs that can also invest in, you know, women who are making a few dollars a day and that can also work with utilities. A lot of utilities. Around the world in these countries where we focus are completely strapped for cash and to your point at the outset, it’s like, why isn’t the capital there because there’s so much more competing for that.

So if we can work with utilities, a lot of utilities now are doing concessions where they’ll allow consortium to come in and bid on a project. to get the infrastructure built. Sometimes they give a concession also to run that utility for a while, until then it transfers over to the utility, to the local government, to be able to then own that asset.

And so we’re focused on that type of capital coming in as well. And that’s where, you know, we’ve just launched our fifth fund. fund at Water Equity, which is focused on water and climate resilient infrastructure that will be focusing on investing in that type of work with utilities, with high growth companies that are focusing on goods and services to those utilities and to the water sector.

So we have twin pillars where we can invest in projects that are being developed. And then we can also invest in growth companies that have technologies. The thing about our asset manager at WaterEquity versus a lot of other asset managers in the world, even those that focus on water and sanitation.

Ours does this through the lens of it has to be delivering impact around climate and low income populations to make sure that they are disproportionately benefiting from these types of investments. And that’s what we are going to continue to adhere to, because that’s why we exist from the first place, is because it’s people living in poverty, that have the greatest needs, and that’s kind of in our DNA to go after them, regardless of whether it is philanthropy or impact investing.

Innovative Financial Models for Water Projects

Antoine Walter: But how do you create a category? Because you describe that very well in the book, how philanthropy money is something that exists. It’s money which goes out there, which is spent, and which you never see coming back. Then you have investment money, which is money which you put with various levels of risk, but you expect it to have a return and let’s put sustainable and impact investing aside for now.

The main criterion is it has to make returns and you’re somewhat in between. You’re saying we don’t have to waste that money. We can have work harder. Make it work harder. How do you create that connection?

Gary White: It is challenging because, you know, most of us tend to think of things as either this or that. I think it’s kind of the way that the human mind tends to work.

It’s black and white, it’s yes or no. And it’s philanthropy or it’s investing that’s going to yield a market return. What’s key to this is that there is immense value being created for poor women when they get access to water. Like I said, they’re starting businesses, they’re saving, you know, a lot of money if they’re buying water from vendors.

So there is value being created. And what do investors need? They need to invest in things that are going to create value or else they’re not going to get repaid. And so once you kind of make it undeniable that poor people aren’t a charity problem to be solved. But they are. actually are a market to be served, then the capital markets will start to pay attention.

And I think that’s what we’re trying to do to bridge that gap. We’re doing what I call creating the financial plumbing that allows those investors to find women who are living on a few dollars a day, and kind of take the friction out of the system. When you start to have a proof point, when you have 66 million people getting access to loans, 5.

5 billion in loans have now churned through our partner network and that they’re repaid at an 98 percent rate, then when you go out and launch an asset manager and you have that as an underlying asset. That it’s not easy by any means. You know, our first fund was just friends and family. You know, Matt, my co-founder Damon, put in the first million for our first $11 million fund.

And then, you know, we created a $50 million fund and then we did $150 million fund and another one. And so now we’re on our fifth fund. And the reason that. is because they see it as a way to, yes, get competitive financial returns, but also to have human impact and social impact. And, you know, for businesses, ESG impact.

To answer your question is it’s really hard. to bridge those two worlds. But now that we are successful getting the investment capital in, it actually helps us raise more philanthropic capital to scale this. So the Bezos Earth Fund has provided a 10 million philanthropic grant to us. Amazon has provided a 10 million grant.

Many other, you know, corporates and foundations have provided that philanthropy to us to take this to the next level. Our interim goal is to reach 100 million people with another billion dollars in investment capital. And the reason we’re going to be able to build that investment capital portfolio is because we have the philanthropy to go out and start this up.

If you look at what we had to do to create water equity as an asset manager, it took us about 20 million dollars to invest over the course of many years to stand that up. We had to invest that philanthropic capital early before we had a fund to hire the expertise to put the talent in place around the world that we needed to have the investment deal flow before anyone was going to invest in us.

So you see, that’s the Cadillac power of philanthropy. We were able to raise enough unrestricted philanthropy to invest that 20 million to get water equity up and running so that that philanthropic capital could leverage the markets. And now water equity has grown. raised nearly a half a billion dollars in committed capital that wouldn’t have been there if we didn’t put the 20 million in philanthropy.

So that’s how you get the philanthropy to work with the markets.

Antoine Walter: So you’re saying it’s not only expensive to be poor, it’s also expensive to help the poor to come out of that experience. I mean, 20 million just to create the fund, it’s a commitment because you’re creating, again, something which is a weird animal.

But to my napkin calculation, because I have so many questions, you mentioned the 5. 5 billion dollars of money which you’ve deployed. You also mentioned the 66 million people who gave access to water. I do stupid maths. 5. 5 billion, which I divide by 66 million, makes about 83 dollars per person. So that’s what it takes to take someone, indirectly bring them out of poverty because you give them access to water.

If you multiply that by the 2. 1 billion people who don’t have access to water in the world, again, I know I’m doing stupid math, but just to give you a sense of the scale, that’s 175 billion. But it’s a one off. It’s not like the recurring money we need to put every year to reach the same goal. And if we assume you can scale to the roof and beyond your 98 percent payback rate, that means that money is not gone.

It’s money, which keeps. Working, you just have to have that capital. If I take now the word bank numbers and I extrapolate them towards the goal of 2030, SDG6 is reached. The traditional way it would cost 1. 7 trillion. Your way, it costs 175 billion. So 10 times less. I’m an engineer as well. So I’m also out of water when it comes to financials, but you’ve kind of found the martingale to be 10 times cheaper to reach the same goal while still having the money working.

I know I’m taking a ton of paper assumptions here, but what prevents you to go from 66 to 100? 200. And ultimately, everybody has access to water.

Gary White: What prevents us is like that next barrier that we’re trying to remove. And yes, if you do the numbers on it, and the number of people we’re reaching per dollar invested is really strong.

But it presupposes that those people have a water grid to connect to, to have the infrastructure there. You can think of, you know, a woman showing up at a utility saying, here’s my 300. I want to connect. to this utility, then she gets connected. But that also presupposes that there was a utility to connect to.

And so those numbers have to be aggregated in a little bit different way. But the point is, is spot on. And that is, if you’re just waiting for all the capital to come from the top down and supply everybody with water basically for free, it’s never going to happen. And if you want to have people have the opportunity to find the solutions that they want from the bottom.

up. That’s going to be limited by the solutions that are in the marketplace or that are there with utilities. And this is where we’re at with our next evolution with water equity and water and climate resilient infrastructure. So we know we’ve been very successful at creating literally millions of micro loans from the bottom up.

But now we need to come at it from the top down for two reasons, at least. One is that the capital is not being invested in those utilities and in the infrastructure to provide that service. Number two, when that is being invested, it isn’t always being done by looking through a climate lens to understand what’s the vulnerability in that infrastructure that’s going to make sure that it’s going to be climate resilient.

What we’ve done is, because we realize we have to look at this from a project finance, perspective. We’ve built, you know, 140 MFIs, financial institutions in our network. And that has been pretty straightforward to go out, especially because so many of these MFIs tell other MFIs about it. And then the word kind of spreads.

So there are kind of their own marketing mechanism for us. But if you want to go and build water infrastructure in Brazil or in Kenya or South Africa or India, it takes a whole lot more than convincing one MFI to do this. So the problem largely is that people talk about there’s plenty of capital available if you just have the right deals, if you have the right infrastructure play and develop the project in a way that convinces investors that it’s going to be cash positive.

You have a lot of utilities out there that are saying we need investment and you have the capital market saying it’s there, but what you’re missing in the middle is like the bankability of a deal, deal by deal by deal. That’s where we’ve now, again, we’ve used some of that philanthropic capital to launch what So WaterConnect is a separate entity that is in the business of understanding what is needed to develop a project like a water treatment plant that serves a poor neighborhood.

Understanding what it takes to get that deal to bankability. Sometimes that can take up to one or two percent of the project cost. If you’re talking about a hundred million dollar facility, it might take a couple of million dollars. to do the study, the feasibility study, the environmental impact study, the climate resilience part of that.

All of these things that need to happen that give investors confidence that this is bankable. We’ve used philanthropic capital to, again, go out and hire all the people around the world that we need to be credible in that space to develop projects. And so we’ve just launched that, uh, in the last couple of months.

Now, what we have is philanthropic capital coming in to help.

And then we have water equity over here ready to invest. So what we’re able to do is to provide all of this under one roof. So when we are using WaterConnect to go and develop the project, we know what it’s going to take to get water equity to invest. We have the checklist, if you will, of the investment committee at water equity as WaterConnect goes out and builds a bankable deal so that we have a high probability that the investment will come.

That’s the key to this because this has been disaggregated so much with technical assistance funds and some blended finance. A facility over here that’s doing the technical assistance, and then you have the investors over here, and they’re not really coordinated, so it can take years for this to happen.

And so what we want to do is compress that, and by putting this coordination under one roof, and having kind of a single point of management for that, we’re able to kind of make that happen. The deals flow faster so that the infrastructure gets built. And so people can connect.

Antoine Walter: Some numbers, which I think go to your points, the typical projects we’re discussing here, if it’s done in a PPP and developed by a private partner, it’s going to take seven to 15 years to go to market.

And when you speak with us, private partners, they say, If only we had a better link to the utility, a better link to the DFIs, we could take that down to one to two years because all the rest is just the efficiencies of the system.

Accelerating Project Development with DFIs

Carlos Cosin: If we evolve to the DFIs in the process and we are doing now, from the beginning, instead of seven years to develop a project, you can develop ten years.

Two years, three years, if you reduce the time and the money to develop project will be more attractive to bring any other players, because nowadays, if you say that we are now closing a very big project, 1. 5 billion, six years of working, if you can bring seven years ago partners and you explain that this is my project, nobody, nobody believe me.

Join forces with you. But if DFIs are in this position to serve this risk and to accelerate the process, for sure they will facilitate for any future projects the process for new players. What you’re

Antoine Walter: saying is that by having all of those under the same roof, well, you’re getting rid of the inefficiencies and hence you can be faster to action.

Gary White: That’s exactly our theory of what we’re, we’re trying to do. We hear a big demand for that in the marketplace. The Development Finance Corporation in the U. S. is one of our investors in the previous funds, and they’re looking to come into the infrastructure fund as well. I see that compression and that under one roof approach as being attractive.

Challenges and Innovations in Water Equity

Antoine Walter: Now to my challenging question on that. I fully understand why you have to go out and do water credit and why nobody else does it because you have to prove a point, you have to start a thesis. Of course, you show that it works. But still, it’s pretty special. We discussed about water equity, how that is a weird animal where you have to create a category and there as well, it’s successful.

It works, but someone needs to start it. And that’s you.

Market Gaps and Unique Approaches

Antoine Walter: WaterConnect though, there are project developers out there in the fields whose job and livelihood is to do that. So what’s the gap in the market, which you’re filling with that? Is it because the existing ones don’t want to go in the geographies where you’re at?

Is it because they don’t want to take these kinds of projects or is it simply because of what we said of bringing everything under the same roof?

Gary White: By and large, the. The project development that’s happening is happening in the industrialized countries, more affluent countries, and it’s not as complex possibly as trying to do it in a low income country that doesn’t have a strong track record of sustainable utilities that are there providing these services.

That’s one thing. What we are doing that I don’t believe any other project development company is doing is coming at this with the lens of low income populations to really make it part of our investment thesis, to make it part of our impact metrics that we are adhering to for our investors. Part of those metrics aren’t just the financial returns, but they’re like, what’s the demographic of the population that’s going to benefit from this?

What’s the climate? impact that’s going to result from this. So we believe we are unique in the market in terms of having this different lens that looks at the human side of this, the socioeconomic indicators of the population we’re serving, the adaptation value of a project that we’re bringing in to make sure that that completes the circle, right?

Nobody wants to be investing in a project where the source water wasn’t carefully studied to understand what’s happening with climate change in that watershed. To make that project work, we’re baking all of that in and we believe that we don’t have all the answers yet, but we believe we’re building the team and the expertise that we need to deliver those other impact components that go beyond just the financial returns.

We also believe that it’s not just going to be water equity. as the investor that’s going to come in to the sector and provide those returns. But again, we want to like use our approach to kind of illuminate the path to help the capital markets understand that yes, there is a way to put these different pieces together in a way that allows.

You as an investor to come in and meet your investment criteria and get the impact that you want. So hopefully by illustrating, you know, we’re not even to a half a billion dollars of capital committed yet, but hopefully we’ll get up into the billions and then that should be enough of a signal effect.

We hope for other investors to come in through their own activities. world. That’s the, the vision.

Antoine Walter: So you’re crossing the chasm so that once it’s then in the main market, people will realize that it’s actually a suitable path and they will take the ball and keep it rolling.

Gary White: Absolutely. Absolutely. And we’re seeing all types of investors come in for those financial returns and more.

Investor Interest and Financial Returns

Gary White: The fourth We had Starbucks invest in that fund. We had EcoLab, we had Reckitt, we had Caterpillar, Dow. These Fortune 100 companies that are now not using charity, they’re using their balance sheets to come into the funds. Why are they doing that, right? One is because There you can get a financial return.

Two is that this has potential to help with their ESG score. So many of them are focused on having a positive water footprint, water, uh, resilience in their operations. And so they just see this as a way for them to learn more about water, have impact in water, ESG, and other areas like replenishment that they have as their corporate goals.

It’s trying to understand, you know, what are all of the needs in the marketplace when capital comes in, because it’s not just a black and white, we need X percent of financial return. We don’t care about anything else. It’s like, we have a bar that we can’t go below with our financial return, but we’ll invest if we can get all these other attributes as well that are a value to us and our customers.

Antoine Walter: It’s numbers, it’s statistics, it’s theory, but today more than 50 percent of investors have. impact as part of the investment thesis. So I think you would check all the boxes for impact. You mentioned financial returns and I don’t want to say something stupid because those numbers matter. But if I’m right for your fifth funds, you’re aiming at nine person return.

Is that about right?

Gary White: I can’t speak to the actual returns and numbers, but we are aiming for competitive financial returns and having a risk reward profile that is appropriate,

Antoine Walter: which leads me to something I’ve noted myself when it comes to. I’m covering this kind of topics. I had the rural water network on that microphone, discussing what they do.

I had project developers discussing what they do, and I’m publishing this podcast on different platforms and different platforms have different audiences and different demographics. And that is on that specific topic. It shows because whenever I push that on LinkedIn, the podcast platforms, I get super positive returns.

Like that’s great. It’s good that those people show that there is a path where it is. just sufficiently profitable that it’s sustainable and so it’s creating a snowball effect.

Public Perception and Education

Antoine Walter: You’ve published that exact same piece of content on TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, wherever else, like, Oh my God, and what’s next?

Will we have to pay for children’s toys? They will put a tax on children’s toys and maybe I have to pay for the air I’m breathing. And oh, it’s again, those big corporates which try to privatize water because people have seen Netflix rotten. And so they see Nestle and the likes and they do an association.

So there is one element which is educating the professionals and the financial market. There’s another element which is educating the public. Is it also one part where you’re looking at or you say, as long as the financial people get it, good for us.

Gary White: There’s a lot of wrong ways to solve a problem like this.

And we’ve seen those with privatization, not only privatization of the water infrastructure, but privatization of the water resource as well. And certainly that is something that we would never espouse to do. And it was very wrongheaded yet. We also know That’s there. isn’t enough capital going into the system right now, and that we can’t just wait and make water free for everyone because it’s, it’s a precious resource.

It needs to have a price so that it will be conserved. The challenge is making sure that people who are in abject poverty, and we recognize that our approach, water credit and water equity, isn’t going to be the complete solution because there are people who are so poor and so rural that they are not going to be able to get this through a loan.

But the point is, let’s not treat everybody in the world who doesn’t have access to water is equally poor. Let’s segment the market and help those who all they need is a loan to get access, help them get that. And then what it can is it can free up tremendous amount of resources from governments and other capital providers.

To say, look, this part of the market, we can do this with investment, this smaller part of the market of absolute poverty, we now have the resources that we’re saving that we can apply that to people who are there. You need to have tariffs that are equitable. So in some countries you have the first amount of water that’s used each month, a few cubic.

meters free, and that’s great. But then if you’re using more cubic meters because, you know, you’re not conserving or you’re running a business with that extra water, you see, you know, people doing car washes, even in some low income countries. It’s like, well, yeah, if they’re using that amount of water to go start a business, they should pay more per cubic meter.

So there are ways to construct the whole ecosystem in a way that brings in the capital that’s needed, but also helps ensure that the poorest among us get the subsidy that they need.

Role of Governments and International Organizations

Antoine Walter: You mentioned the role of governments. I’m regularly told that I’m the one Who’s wrong, because I had super high expectations from the water conference at the UN last year.

I mean, first since Mar del Plata, 1977, once in a lifetime, almost. It’s going to be a big event, everything, the conference starts. And actually the pre conference was incredibly good because the first thing they proposed was an interview of you and Matt Damon. Uh, so I was like, Oh, well, they, they get it.

It’s the right people. It’s going to be, it’s going to be great. And then they do like an opening ceremony. And then from there on, it was not only downhill because downhill would mean. The beginning would be pretty good. And then it goes down. You know, really, it went to the bottom and it stayed at the bottom for the entire three days of the conference.

I personally went out of that thinking, forget it, neither the UN nor simply the countries will be able to solve that. The solution has to be somewhere else. And you say very, very rightfully that the solution can be somewhere else to a certain extent, but there is still a section of the path. problem, which is to be solved by the nations.

Do you see a behind the scenes, which would be more positive than what I experienced watching live from home, which would bring back some hope in these international organizations to solve the problem?

Gary White: I do, but it’s not huge. It’s a spark of hope rather than like a flame. I think right now there is no one.

who doesn’t want to solve this problem. There are people who devote their lives to it in government in these, these multilateral organizations. But you do tend to see kind of a calcification of approaches to solve the problem and you, you don’t see a tremendous amount of innovation coming out of those, those institutions.

It’s a government worker can like go on their whole career just kind of doing what they’re doing as opposed to like. sparking an innovation, and that’s the safe path for them. The system is kind of built to not move very far one way or the other. And that’s where I think you need to have the private sector.

You need to have innovators kind of coming in to kind of jolt the system in a way and develop the evidence base and develop the proof that this is a new way of doing it. Then they’ll follow. I really believe You know, institutions like the UN and the World Bank, they’re paying a lot of attention to what we’re doing in terms of mobilizing capital markets for this.

And they’re getting on board. They’re putting it on their platforms. The World Economic Forum was featuring a lot of what we’re doing. We had a pretty prominent place at the UN Water Conference. I just came from the World Water Forum in Bali and I was on more panels giving more talks there than ever before because people do see this and are looking at it and how does it incorporate with what.

They’re trying to do with blended finance and other platforms that they’re creating, you know, the glass is more half full than half empty, I think,

Antoine Walter: but it isn’t easy. If I try to bring that in my words, that’s somewhat like those institutions are by essence and by definition kind of laggards. And I mean that with no negativity, just because it’s the way they’re built.

So you have to be the one to ignite and to create the movements. But eventually, if you bring it past the tipping point, they will take it from there.

Gary White: Yeah. You talked about crossing the chasm earlier. I imagine you read that book, you know, the early adopters, uh, the early majority and then the late majority and then laggards.

Right. Yeah. So I think I got that right. It’s been a while since I read the book. Uh, but yeah, Yeah, we want to position ourselves kind of in that innovation space and show that yes, you can cross that chasm where most of the efforts just kind of fall into the chasm and you got to get over to those kind of late adopters, especially that’s where I hope we have our sites set because again, it’s, it’s not.

us that’s gonna solve this problem. It’s gotta be us hypothesizing new ideas and building an evidence base that’s undeniable so that the capital markets will come in. And I think it is interesting to see. I mean, we don’t have, you know, we don’t have the UN, we don’t have governments like investing in our funds.

Who’s investing in our funds? It’s high net worth individuals. It’s foundations like the Skoll Foundation and the Hilton Foundation. Foundations can take a little bit more risk. And then we have corporates in the fund. Four, you know, that was $25 million from Starbucks. They invested. What we’re seeing is real money coming in to this from the private sector, and what we hear from the World Bank is like, Hey, you know, we would love to work with you more on this because we’re trying to leverage the private sector to come into this is just told by a former World Bank staffer that.

The World Bank is right now only mobilizing about 40 cents for every one dollar that they bring, 40 cents of private sector capital. And so I do think they are looking at us. We’re talking to them. It’s like, how can we work with you to one, help you fulfill your mandate more of like, not just investing in infrastructure agnostically, but investing it in a way to ensure that the last five or 10 percent of the population get connected, which is very important to them and a challenge for them, but then also a way that brings in the private sector.

Private capital markets to blend with the work that they’re doing. And that’s what we certainly see with, with water equity. I’d love it to see, you know, us doing that project development and providing 10% of the infrastructure costs and then see the bank come up with the rest or put it together through the local investors in those markets.

That’s what we wanna be able to Capital

Antoine Walter: kind of blended capital and Exactly. I have one last question on, on the other side. O of that. Let’s cope because we’ve talked about your way in the middle. We’ve talked about how institutions will eventually get the ball rolling. But what happens to traditional charity?

Future of Traditional Charity in Water Projects

Antoine Walter: Does it still exist in the future? And let me take an anecdote example to just illustrate that because you’re pretty familiar with some star power given your co founder for a different generation. The number one star in the world. Mhm. Today is probably Mr. Beast. He’s the largest YouTuber on the platform, must have something like 260 million subscribers.

And last year, it got very well publicized, but already two years before he did the same. So he did twice to drill 100 wells. I think the first time he drilled 30 wells and the second time he drilled 100 wells. The reaction to that was a mixed bag. On one end, people say, Hey, before they had nothing, after they had something.

But you also have to acknowledge that there are about 300, 000 abandoned pumps in Africa. So again, I’m going to steal your word. You’re saying it’s the difference between doing it for them and doing it with them. Will that still exist in the future? Or does that have to be somewhat replaced for the better with your kind of approaches?

Mm

Gary White: hmm. I think it does have to be replaced with better approaches. Any water NGO that’s out there operating this space, there’s probably more than a thousand of them. water NGOs that are out there doing that type of what we call direct impact projects. And I think that the ones that have been doing it for a while, they’re always looking to find ways to ensure sustainability and having different mechanisms built in.

And sometimes that works, but frankly, still it doesn’t most of the time. If you kind of go back and look at projects five or five or 10 years later, there needs to be. kind of an increase. Those organizations always need to be thinking about how can they do that better to get things more sustainable, and a lot of organizations are.

But I think we also just need to rethink how philanthropy works. What we tend to see in this space is that everybody who lacks access to water is in need of charity. And so that’s kind of the, the thesis that we have started from. And that’s the thesis that I started from, you know, back in 1990, that that was what had to be done.

But If you look at how the nature of poverty has evolved and changed, you look at, you know, I love this book by Hans Rosling, Factfulness, and just talking about how people perceive how the world is doing with respect to poverty, how we perceive it as it continues to get worse. If you look at the numbers, you know, Bill Gates talks about this a lot too.

If you look at the numbers of what’s happening, billions of people have lifted themselves out of poverty. We’re still stuck in the water sector as thinking about how it used to be decades ago, when really now there are billions of people who could participate, who’ve lifted themselves out of poverty.

And when you come out of poverty, what’s one of the first things you want? You want water. You don’t want to be spending all your money and all your time to get water. So, like This is why people are taking these loans out, you know, they get to a certain level of poverty and it’s like, now I can take out that loan because it’s going to add all this value for me.

So I do think we need to kind of help catch up our charity mindset with the market that we’re trying to serve. What we’ve basically said, we stopped doing direct impact work. Not because we didn’t think it was still good, but if the other thousand NGOs are doing a charity led approach, there’s probably room for one to focus just on a market based approach.

And that’s why I think I’ve been doing this for a long time, and I’ve often said the things that determine our success are much more what we’ve said no to than what we’ve said yes to. And you have to be very disciplined, especially when you’re a smaller startup, you have to say no a lot. You have to understand where your sweet spot is, where what you’re doing is unique in the marketplace and then you have to say no to a lot of other things.

I see all kinds of entrepreneurs, you know, like I said, I was just in Bali, I visit the World Water Conference. I get all kinds of people pitching me. You know, at water. org, in fact, at the water conference, one gentleman followed me into the bathroom while I was at the urinal and was pitching me the whole time.

It’s a crazy kind of thing. I think that’s amazing that people have such passion for this, but, uh, we have had to say no to so many things. And that’s why, you know, we now have the success we’ve had on water credit. Why water equity is. It doesn’t mean that the whole ecosystem needs to have different players.

It’s just that that’s kind of where we focused.

Antoine Walter: You mentioned the passion. You mentioned how you’ve started in the nineties. I wish you a prosperous life, but within the book and repeatedly, you’re saying that you want to solve that. in this lifetime.

Confidence in Solving the Water Crisis

Antoine Walter: What is your level of confidence that this will happen?

Gary White: High. High. Because what we see is that there is this underlying market, this underlying demand, this underlying willingness to pay for these services. And we see You know, women taking up solutions on their own to solve their own problems. We definitely know that water creates immense value for people.

It’s clear. People coming out of poverty are willing and able to pay for that at a fairly low level of service and then eventually they can elevate that. What we also know is that we have created the financial plumbing that can connect those women to the capital markets. The capital markets have different risk return profiles, as we’ve talked about.

Sometimes they build in more ESG in terms of what they see as the return. But by and large, we’ve gone from a system, when I started in this business, where every dollar that went into water and sanitation through philanthropy went in and was spent and it was gone. Now we’re seeing us able to bring philanthropy in and cycle it over and over again.

That was just breakeven, but then it evolved to like actually being able to provide financial returns. So if you look at that journey, if you look at that value that’s created by water for people, if you look at that philanthropy getting multiplied over and over again, if you look at having the financial network in place that can find those projects to invest in and have a connection to the capital markets and you know, the capital markets are theoretically infinite, right?

There’s just. So much inertia in all the machinery that’s in there. It’s calcified, it’s stuck, it’s rusty, it moves at a slow pace. But that’s how capitalism works. If you create value for somebody and you have capital, they’re going to find each other. And what we’re trying to do is to kind of oil the machine to take the friction out a little bit.

Once you Jolt that all into place and let the system kind of sort itself out. Then yes, I do have confidence that that’s going to happen in an accelerating rate and hopefully I’ll live a

Antoine Walter: long life to see it. That’s a perfect conclusion for this deep dive. And I think it’s absolutely logical with what you said, which is the inertia first goes against you.

But once it started, it goes. With you, because then it keeps pushing to round off those interviews.

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Rapid fire questions:

Antoine Walter: What is your definition of innovation in action?

Gary White: Innovation in action is observing and having a hypothesis about what’s wrong. And then, you know, creating a solution and iterating.

Antoine Walter: What is the most innovative water solution you’ve seen in the past 12 months?

Gary White: Uh, the innovation is at the household level and it’s like saying we can’t be dependent on just one water source.

These are people who are like saying, okay, we need the well. We also know that that could go dry. And so we need to figure out, you know, is there a different way? way, a different loan that we can take out to make the well deeper or to get a pump. And so to me, it’s that the innovation of knowing you don’t put all your eggs in one basket when you’re a poor person living without water and you have to have a plan A, a plan B, and a plan C.

And to me, that’s incredibly smart and innovative because if you don’t have different levels of plan, you don’t have water.

Antoine Walter: In one word, what is the biggest challenge facing the water industry today? Finance. I would have expected that one. Who is a water innovator you admire and why?

Gary White: You know, I would say somebody who didn’t know they were a water innovator, but that I admire, but they turned out to be a water innovator is Muhammad Yunus, right?

Because he built the water. the, the system of microfinance. And so we’re standing on his shoulders. And I think his insight into microfinance is a pretty strong reason why we’ve reached so many people.

Antoine Walter: Did you work one to one with him?

Gary White: No, I didn’t. I didn’t. You know, I’ve, I’ve met him on a couple of occasions and we’ve had exchange of ideas about this.

Antoine Walter: What’s one single piece of advice you would give to emerging water entrepreneurs?

Gary White: I think study the problem. I started going to Ted. Years ago in some of the early days and the reason I went wasn’t to hang out with a bunch of other water people It was to hang out with people who had completely different businesses and ways of approaching things And getting that cross fertilization of ideas So to me the best piece of advice for entrepreneurs is to get outside of your domain and figure out what are those?

Because you can try and kind of put the square peg in the round hole for a long time. But once you get outside of your domain, you might find a different shape peg. And then it all becomes so much easier. And for us, that was like understanding how do you take the problem that you’re solving and you apply something that seemed unrelated, which is microfinance, and plug that round peg into the round hole

Antoine Walter: and then boom.

What’s the common misconception about water innovation that you’d like to debunk?

Gary White: Ah, I think we talked about it a lot. That all people who lack access to water are too poor to pursue their own solution.

Antoine Walter: It’s not the first time I hear Paul giving those figures about the economy, which is unlocked if you give access to people to water.

But I think it’s the kind of refresher that’s, but yeah, it’s, if I open that door, we’re still here in one hour. So what is one water taboo that you broke or you believe we should break?

Gary White: I keep coming back to the same thing and that the taboo. Was that you could, you know, people are willing to pay for water and that they should pay for water.

And they do that because what they pay is only a small fraction of the value it creates for them. And

Antoine Walter: the last one, which is the traditional one, what can and should I do for you?

Gary White: What you should do is get this podcast out to as many people as possible. So I’m sure you’re on that. Uh, but no, I think storytelling, you know, this is an incredible interview, by the way, you, you’ve done a great job.

That storytelling. of the issue and breaking it down for people so that they understand again, I have a great team at water. org and water equity and water connect. And we try to emphasize, you know, storytelling as much as the, you know, the financial machinations of this. And so I think having more people kind of tell the story and breaking it down and drawing it out from us, I think is an important thing.

to do. So I appreciate that. And there’s lots that everybody can do. You know, again, we need philanthropic capital. We need investment capital. Accredited investors should feel free to reach out to us if they want to join in.

Antoine Walter: As there’s a lot that people can do, where can they follow up with you the best?

Gary White: Just water. org. And waterequity.

Antoine Walter: com, two good places to start. You made a super clever move to have your website clear to everybody. Everybody knows where to find you. So yes, Gary, it’s been an, I mean pleasure for sure, but an honor to have you. I’m super happy that it happens because since I read your book, I’ve dreamed of that moment.

So I’m super happy to, to have had that conversation with you. I hope it’s not the last one, but I let you enjoy the rest of the blue tick forum and I hope to see you soon in the future.

Gary White: Thank you, Antoine. Nice job.

Other Episodes:

FREDsense: Revolutionizing Water Quality Monitoring with Biosensor Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 7 May 2025

Swirltex: Revolutionizing Wastewater Treatment with Bubbly Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 30 April 2025

Blue Foot Membranes: The Next Evolution in Water Filtration

By Antoine Walter | 16 April 2025

Echo River Capital: Pioneering the Future of Water Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 3 April 2025

1001 Fontaines: Engineering Sustainable Water Access Through Social Entrepreneurship

By Antoine Walter | 22 March 2025

Amazon’s Water Footprint: Tech Giant’s Quest for Water Sustainability

By Antoine Walter | 19 March 2025

Turing: The AI Revolution Quenching the Water Industry’s Thirst for Innovation

By Antoine Walter | 26 February 2025

Altillion: Pioneering Digital Intelligence for Water Asset Management

By Antoine Walter | 6 February 2025

Flocean: Pioneering Ocean-Based Water Solutions

By Antoine Walter | 15 January 2025

Botanical Water Technologies: Harvesting Liquid Gold from Plants

By Antoine Walter | 4 December 2024

The post The World’s Best Water Entrepreneur Actually Runs a Charity appeared first on (don't) Waste Water.

Wanna learn more? Let’s dive into it:

with Gabriel Toffani – CEO at Adionics

Resources:

Have a look at Adionics’ website

Come say hi to Gabriel on LinkedIn

Check out my Lithium deep dive

Get a glimpse into the various DLE generations

is on Linkedin

Antoine Walter on LinkedIn

Full Video:

Breaking Ground with Innovative Technology

As you know, I’ve been navigating the interface between lithium and water technology for some months now.

Well, in that jungle of cutting-edge new technologies, I have to say, Adionics stands out – for a full set of reasons.

Adionics is a Direct Lithium Extraction player, yes, but with a disruptive approach. When most of DLE players nowadays build their stacks around membranes, sorbtion or adsorbtion technologies, Adionics went for a different core technology: solvent extraction.

The perks of Solvent Extraction as a DLE process

Adionics’ solvent extraction is highly selective, targeting lithium with unparalleled precision while minimizing the extraction of unwanted elements like boron and magnesium.

This precision means:

• High Purity: Achieving extremely pure lithium chloride.
• Cost-Effective Processing: Simplifying the transition from lithium chloride to lithium carbonate, reducing costs.
• Sustainable Practices: Lower water consumption, making it environmentally friendly.

Industrial Readiness and Pilot Projects

One of the standout moments in this week’s discussion was Gabriel’s assertion that Adionics is ready for industrial-scale deployment. Their technology isn’t just theoretical; it’s been tested in real-world conditions. Adionics has built pilot projects designed to operate at high altitudes, such as 3,800 meters above sea level in the lithium-rich regions of South America.

Gabriel elaborated on their pilot projects:

• Altitude Adaptation: Pilots constructed to function efficiently at high altitudes, reflecting the company’s focus on the lithium triangle—Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia.
• Demonstration Plant: Adionics is setting up a demo plant in San Antonio to showcase their technology’s robustness and efficiency in extracting lithium from various brine sources.

Adionics’ Strategic Pivot: from Desalination to Lithium

Adionics wasn’t always focused on lithium. The company initially aimed to revolutionize desalination. However, recognizing the burgeoning demand for lithium and the inadequacies in current extraction methods, Adionics made a bold pivot in 2017 towards lithium extraction—a time when lithium prices were low, showcasing their foresight and innovative spirit.

Unique Approach: Flionex Technology

Adionics’ Flionex technology is another feather in their cap. This proprietary solvent extraction process was developed entirely in-house, from molecular creation to large-scale industrial application. The technology involves three crucial steps:

1. Extraction: Flyonics selectively extracts lithium from brine, ignoring most other elements.
2. Washing: A minimal water wash to remove any remaining impurities.
3. Regeneration: Releasing pure lithium chloride ready for further processing.

Competitive Edge in the DLE Market

In a market crowded with over 50 DLE companies, standing out is no small feat. Gabriel confidently stated that Adionics’ competitive edge lies in their efficiency at varying lithium concentrations, especially in the range of 200-250 ppm and higher. This adaptability ensures they remain competitive across different brine sources, whether in the lithium triangle or beyond.

The Future: Industrialization and Global Impact

As you’ll see in the full interview below, Gabriel shared ambitious plans for the future. Adionics is poised to move from pilot projects to full-scale industrial plants, with hopes to sign their first industrial contract soon. They are also exploring partnerships and opportunities in North America, Europe, and beyond, emphasizing a global vision for their groundbreaking technology.

In a nutshell

Adionics is not just disrupting the lithium extraction industry; they are redefining it with their innovative technology and strategic vision. Gabriel’s insights during our recording highlight the company’s commitment to sustainability, efficiency, and industrial readiness. As the demand for lithium continues to surge, Adionics is – I believe – well-positioned to lead the charge in delivering high-purity lithium through environmentally friendly methods.

My Full Conversation with Gabriel Toffani on Solvent Extraction for Direct Lithium Extraction

These are computer-generated, so expect some typos

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Antoine Walter: Hi, Gabriel. Welcome to the show.

Gabriel Toffani: Thank you.

Antoine Walter: I’m pumped up about that conversation because. You won’t remember me, but I remember you. we crossed path in Salta last year at the panorama mineral conference, you were speaking there. And, I was just sneaking on you, hoping to get to catch you.

And at the moment I thought I was able to grab you, you were leaving the building and entering a taxi.

Gabriel Toffani: Okay. So that’s not too late. Sorry about that. Thanks for having me first. And then sorry about this Santa, I was not aware about, but it’s now nice to know it.

The Core of Adionics’ Technology

Antoine Walter: But since then, you know, I wanted to go into the core of your technology What’s your number one challenge, which you’re solving.

 If you just had to give me one reason why your technology is the killer one, what would it be?

Gabriel Toffani: need to give you a few reasons because it’s a whole. So let’s say if I should be one, it’s extremely selective, right? Which makes it simple to use and then ones that you go from lithium chloride to Lithium carbonate that makes that part very simple and cheap But of course being very selective means that we have a very high yield the high purity We have a low water consumption.

maybe I will tell you then, why did I came to Adionix? But at the moment I decide to came, the technology was a very important thing . And at that time, I did believe what they told me, what Guillaume, the founder, told me. It’s not very modest, and I try to be humble, but I do think we do have the best technology of the market. I give maybe you hear this. Few times before, but this time is true.

Diving into Solvent Extraction

Antoine Walter: Actually, your technology has something which is for sure very different from all the other ones we’ve covered so far. It’s that you do solvent extraction and We covered membranes, we covered all the different types of adsorbent, which you could be using to extract lithium, but that’s the first time I’m covering and solvent extraction when I think you’re not fully alone.

I would expect Solvay to do something around that as well, but the way you do it, I would give it to you that you sound to be the only ones. Do you feel like the pioneer or do you feel like alone?

Gabriel Toffani: We feel that kind of unique technology. you can not really compare it to the others. I don’t know in detail, all the others, but I prefer to talk about our technology, and once again, we do think, it is very, very good one,

Antoine Walter: So before we go into the full story, what would be your best elevator pitch to Adionix?

Industrial Readiness and Pilot Projects

Gabriel Toffani: the Onyx, not only we have a good technology, but now we did try it with industrial pilots in real conditions, and we show that it is working. So my best elevator pitch to mining companies is that we are ready to go. I mean, everything is okay.

We can do an industrial plant tonight. So. It’s ready.

Antoine Walter: Well, given the elevator pitch, that gives me a good way to enter into the depth of it because your pilots on their technical notes, it’s written, they are built for operation at 5, 000 meters. Which kind of gives you a hint as to where you intend them to go into play.

Focus on the Lithium Triangle

Antoine Walter: How did you come to that conclusion that your place was mostly in the lithium triangle?

Gabriel Toffani: Well, I don’t know if I tell 5, 000 meters because there are not many places, but at least , there are many minds of 33, 800 and so on. , we communicate on that. We already made testing at a camera. at 2500. And then, we build the pilot considering the altitude. So all the technical decisions were done to try to adapt the pilots to real conditions.

As you might notice, we are waiting, and we will have it soon, a piece of land in San Antonio So we will install the pilot at three thousand eight hundred meters and , of course people can doubt about is that going to work or not at that alt. So I just give you a new, where we will start the pilot in San Antonio and it will work.

Because once again, people, our technicians, our process guys thought about that. When they designed the pilot. So it was done for that. we knew that our big market was the lithium triangle, right?

Antoine Walter: you say that you will have your own pilot in San Antonio, does that mean that you are the lithium developer there and you go end to end, or is it just a demo plan to prove the technology, but you don’t intend to build a 20, 000 tons of lithium carbonate equivalent plant,

Gabriel Toffani: we are not to kind of mining company today. Now, the idea with that site in San Antonio is to have a demo plant and industrial demo plant could be, we have a 15 tones, one in 250 tones. One will be one of them, or maybe both one day. So the idea in the beginning is to bring brines.

From different minds around, make the test, show that the process is working, show that it’s the steady process because when we make tests, it’s 24 hours a day during 1, 2, 3, 4 weeks, whatever, to show that not only that the results are okay, but the process is easy to handle. And then maybe one day when the process, everybody will be convinced that this is working and we have industrial plans, we will transform that maybe.

in a training center or something like that, but we are not going to produce lithium there. No, it’s not the idea.

Antoine Walter: you mentioned that the, this specific region in the lithium triangle is the natural place for you to go. But if I understand right for technology, it can go from 50 ppm up to 50, 000 ppm of lithium. as much as I agree with you that the only place where you would find these super high concentrations is in the lithium triangle, at 50 ppm, basically any produced water fields, oil fields, in the Middle East or in Canada would suit as well.

So why did you focus on The place where evaporation ponds, after all, work pretty well.

Gabriel Toffani: we can treat the brines on the range you mentioned. we need to be also, competitive, you know,you did speak to 20 DLEs companies, but I think there are more than 50 today. So we are in a market where you need to run to be the first. You need to show that you are good, but you need to show that you are competitive.

This is a business, right? So, we are very competitive, maybe at 200, 250 milligrams. And the more we go up in concentration, the more we will be efficient and competitive. We are looking to go to a lower end, because fly on eggs, there’s not only one single product. We will have few of them.

So we are making new research to go down and down in concentration. But while we find the perfect formula for 50 milligrams, we are addressing today something starting at 200, 250 milligrams up to how much you want, as you mentioned, 50 grams or something like that is possible.

The Flionex DLE Technology Explained

Antoine Walter: Flionex is your technology. can we explain how that works?

Gabriel Toffani: , I’m not a chemistry. I’m not the founder and I’m not a researcher, . I’m just an engineer, and I’m just a water engineer, . First, let me tell things, I find magic about the Flionex. The molecules of flying eggs were created here in our lab there downstairs, right?

there a molecule that did not exist before so the guys started to create a milligram and then a few grams Then kilograms that we use in our pilots and We are able to make tons and tons for an industrial plant. So it’s a product that was totally created, by, the ideas of gu de so that they found around the avionics chemical research team.

So how does it, where is a liquid you have the first step where you put the brine in contact with our fly OnX. A few technologies. If the concentration in the brine is about a low one, we use mixer settlers. If it’s a high one, we use centrifuge, but which are not our proprietary equipment.

Those are market equipment, , the same as the mining company used for other purposes the same equipment. So that’s the first step. The fly annex will extract the lithium. And when I said it is a very selective liquid, it means that we will not extract boron, potassium, magnesium, nothing because it’s impossible for the fly annex.

 We will extract a little bit of sodium and,calcium. But all the rest, we will not even touch it. No extraction at all, That’s why we think, we know it will be a very pure lithium chloride. Second step, it’s a kind of washing with a little bit of water.

Gabriel Toffani: Because the fly on eggs is already very pure. We just try to remove any impurity in the second washing step. And the third one, the fly on eggs has all the lithium in it. So we need to release the lithium. So , in the column, we have a counter current fly on eggs and pure water. And then the lithium chloride is already pure going to the production and the fly on X goes around all the time, goes back to the extraction, washing, regeneration and like that.

Antoine Walter: I know that’s prior to you joining the company, but just for me to understand how Adionics, which if I’m right, stands for Advanced Ionics Solutions,

Gabriel Toffani: Yeah.

Adionics’ Strategic Pivot to Lithium

Antoine Walter: I’m curious to understand When you understood that lithium was your home game, because from the dates, if I’m right, the pivots was in 2017 to lithium extraction, and 2017 is a time where the lithium price was very low.

So it was a bold move in 2017 to do that pivot towards lithium. Many have done the pivot in 2022. Cool for them, but it makes a lot of sense when you see that the price goes through the roof. What’s the backstory there?

Gabriel Toffani: , the initial idea of Guillaume was to be able to give drinking water to the whole world, drinking water coming from desalination, right? They even make a Masdar and there were another pilot. So I guess even if desalination was working very good, the desalination space was already very busy with big groups as the French ones and many others, , there are groups around the world doing desalination.

So I think to get, A main place in that world and being very competitive, maybe it was a little bit complicated. And in that time, the vision of Adionis was to say, lithium is going to develop, it’s going to be very important. And we do have a great solution for that. So the switch was on 2017, which that we are working on that for about seven years.

And I think it’s a good thing because if we are ready to industrialization today. It’s because we are working on that space for a long time, right? I don’t know if those who switch in 2022 they are ready for industrialization, but , it took took Tradionis some time to get where we are today, right?

Challenges and Opportunities in DLE

Antoine Walter: You mentioned industrialization and that is the big topic when it comes to DLE. I’m an avid watcher of the lithium sphere. I’m by no means a big expert in lithium, but I think I listened to every single episode of Jolory’s And he regularly takes a shot on DLE and says, Hey, by the way, Is DLE happening at full scale? And he’s right on that, that there is no commercial plans doing DLE end to end. So how big of a topic is industrialization? And when do you think that one company, be it you or another, will be doing an end to end?

Gabriel Toffani: You have already kind of DLE working, which is, the Arcadium DLEs in Argentina with resins and so on. And I guess, I’m sure, that Ahmed is going to start the plant . Also, but they are using their technology for their own, right? Then they can, the competitive space, , as you say, there’s no industrial plant.

So, when I’m telling you that we are ready for industrialization, it means that, we went through a process. That with the pilot plan, we certify that the process is working. And also we did go through a basic engineering project, to confirm what do we need, as industrial equipment.

Which is the exact CAPEX. I’m trying to guess the exact OPEX. We did already that. we are ready for industrialization. So if you say, when can we go to industrialization? I don’t know my colleagues, but we can go to industrialization right now. And we hope to sign the first contract this year.

You know, to sign a contract, it doesn’t depend only if your technology is ready. It depends on many other things moving in the lithium world. But we hope to sign a contract this year. For an industrial plant, of course.

Antoine Walter: Usually when you look at the marketing materials of a DLE company, I’m not saying you, you’re the exception so far. There is this table with the technology of everybody stacked in columns on an OPEX price chart, and then everybody’s on the right. And then the company, which is doing that presentation is on the very left and is much cheaper than everybody else.

And then you move to another company and they have the same chart, except that they are now the one on the very left and they are the cheapest. I have a hard time with silver bullets. I’m. Don’t believe that someone can solve everything and you were very straightforward by saying at the beginning what’s the right concentration at which you have the best efficiency today.

 That’s a lot of points in my personal scoring. So kudos for that. But where would you expect to land in terms of OPEX if you are blessed with a brine which goes to your ideal conditions for fly annex?

Gabriel Toffani: Well, wouldn’t say this confidential information, but it’s very difficult to answer to that question and I guess I will not, sorry about that. , let me explain to you why We are willing to do , what we know how to do. Right? So, what we are going to do with the mining company, we’ll have always our process engineer look in the process, and then you need a little percentage of refinement.

Fly on X every year, so we will guarantee that that is just a few percent that we will do it. Then you have local issues like what’s the price of the water was the price of the kilowatt and so on. So I cannot tell you about that. so it depends on many, many different things

we are not going to operate the plan. We are just going to give process support and fly your next refill. For that part, I could give you the figures, but they are just inside the, something which is bigger. And , I don’t control that.

Antoine Walter: First, that answer, I think I’d even prefer it to if you had just given me a number because that makes a lot of sense. Talking about the way to develop a project, you mentioned how you would have processed people looking at a brine, looking at a composition, then probably do some lab tests.

when do you start? So what’s the beginning of your scope? At what stage? Should a mining company reach out to you so that you can look at what they’re doing and up to where do you go? So you don’t do operation, you said that, but what do you deliver? Is it like the process and then they would have a company install everything or would you do like a turnkey solution and then they operate?

mining company, we can start talking when they. Just ask the question to themselves. Are we going to keep on making evaporation or we want to look at DLE or what do we want to do when they have the composition of their brain, or even if they guess, which is going to be the composition of the brain with all the tests we performed in the last year, we build a mathematical model.

Gabriel Toffani: So if you send me the composition of your brain tonight, I can tell you tomorrow, not the ideal solution. I can propose you curves with many solutions. If you want more purity than yield or more yield and purity, we can choose together, which is your exact point. And for that point, we will give you the result of what our deal is going to do.

And the rough idea about the, our part of CAPEX I will come back to the CAPEX and OPEX. So that’s the first step and with the years Our model is always correct at one two three percent difference because we make a lot of lab tests to correct the model second stage I’m talking to you from les jolis, which is south of paris.

We do have a quite a big lab here So we have a The pilot, the exact, the exact same process as in the industrial pilots, but in the lab, which is very good because it’s a glass, pilot. So you can see the fly on eggs, the water mixing. If you come and you are kindly invited to come, you see the process and you will understand everything very fast.

So second step is to propose to the client to do, we call it a clean lithium one, because we put its number with the tones equivalent, lithium chloride that we can produce every year. If you leave the lab working the whole year, we produce one ton, right? That’s why the other pilots, we call them CL 15 and CL 250.

 Then we can, go to the CL 15 and we can go also on site as we did with our shareholder SQM, we make. test in real conditions, right? So, , what are we going to propose to the mining company? Of course, we’ll perform ourself the basic engineering or the process book or call it as you want.

We will define the process, the size of the main equipment. to be able to guarantee that the process is going to work. That’s what we know how to do Then we are not constructors. We are not an erection company. We don’t know anything about pipes So we will need A kind of epc constructor that will take care of detailed engineering and we can supervise of course And that they will define, how many and how big are the pipes, instruments, cables, whatever you want.

We are not specialists in that, so we will not do that. We will just supply, the basic engineering. Of course, the first field of LionX. We will manufacture that and provide that to the client. The three main equipments, we will buy them because there’s equipment from well known suppliers, but we have a spec for that because it’s particular for our utilization.

And that’s it. Then we willsend process engineer on the side for startup commissioning, We need to make a refill of fly on eggs during the operation of the plant. And also, the brine can change, the conditions can change. So we propose to have a continuous process, survey that we helped the mining company to get.

You know, continuous improvement on the process that they get always what they want to get. Let me tell you one word about the second, model that we are proposing. And that’s based also in our all water experience. We are proposing a kind of BOT BOO model. If a junior miner doesn’t want to deal with financing, we propose them to find investors, create a special purpose company, We should be with a little percentage in the special purpose company will find people that want to invest money in the project and the special purpose company will subcontract to Adionics the technology to an EPC constructor the EPC to an operator the operation and so on.

So that’s second model that we are trying to address as well. But the base model is the technology partner and that’s it.

Partnerships and Future Prospects

Antoine Walter: mentioned the technology partner, you are currently, or you have finished building your CL250 in Latin America. you pick someone which will be your partner for all future projects of this kind, or are you fully agnostic? Whoever is able to put a speed and a frame together is able to put your process together.

Gabriel Toffani: Just a word, the CL250, we did run it, in, North France,

now, waiting to go hopefully to San Antonio de los Cobres, but it’s still in a French port. Okay. , we have two CL One is in Germany because we have a partnership with a company called.

Kutek, because they are making the carbonation. I mean, we are not married. We don’t work always together, but you know, the interesting thing is that the mining company in South America can send brines and we do DLE and carbonation at the same place if they want to make the whole process. And then the second CL 15 is moving right now from Atacama to Salta to North Argentina.

That will be installed soon because it’s a faster to move and we do have the place to install it already.

Antoine Walter: Okay. I have a curiosity question here because your pilot is moving from Chile to Argentina. It’s called the lithium triangle, which means there are three parts of the triangle and your technology is super selective so that it doesn’t really bother with everything which is mixed with the lithium or not as much as other technologies would. That has always been the drawbacks of Bolivian brines that they are mixed with a lot of stuff. It’s not the only. reason why Bolivia is not producing, but it’s one of the reasons why Bolivia is not producing. When I’m hearing what your technology does, it sounds to me like you would have probably a very good solution for Bolivia. Is Bolivia somewhere on the map for you? Or do you say, ah, there’s more than just technology at play here. Wait and see.

Gabriel Toffani: in Bolivia, we have for a few years now an agreement with one university. We did work with them on Bolivian brines with excellent results. And in the last,, we are present in the,

Antoine Walter: In the tender.

Gabriel Toffani: the tender of figure, YLB. So we are looking to Bolivia. Of course, we are looking to the three sides of the triangle, and we would like to be present in the three of them, of course.

Antoine Walter: Before I go to the elephant in the room, because you mentioned SQM already a couple of times, I have to give you that. Stupid personal anecdotes. I mentioned that I was chasing you Salta. Salta. I was together with my colleague from Argentina and he just looked you up on Google. And the first thing he saw is that you’re based in Les Ulysses, but on Avenue des Zondes.

And to him, that was like, of course. And I’m wondering, is it a coincidence? Like you picked a building and then it happened to be Avenue des Zondes or Did you really pick it because hey, if you’re targeting the lithium triangle and all the end is you have to be based in avenue design

You know there’s two entrances. The other is, Avenue, , Terre du Feu, though. , we didn’t pay to the major to change the name of the road. , it’s a coincidence, but it’s a nice, uh, coincidence, right? makes a good icebreaker, I guess when you’re discussing

Gabriel Toffani: we will stay here for a long time.

Okay to a bit more of a serious question. you’ve been Raising 27 million from a group of investors whose lead investor was SQM, which means now SQM is a major investor in Ideonics. SQM is for a while looking at ways to increase the yields of their lithium production in Atacama where today they use only evaporation ponds.

Antoine Walter: Are the two linked and you would be very logically going into SQM Futuro and start developing something in Atacama or is it just SQM is interested in cool people? I had salinity solutions on that microphone just two weeks ago and SQM invested in them. Even though it’s not for lithium topics, it’s for water topics.

So how linked are those two elements that they are running a potential DAD project and that they invested in you?

Gabriel Toffani: SQM, was , for us before they invest already a prospect because we were talking to them for a long time. We were expecting to perform tests and so on. So, be honest, don’t have the answer to your question. You know, that the situation in Chile is changing because Esquima has a concession until 2030.

They announced publicly that they are. Dealing with Codelco. are supposed to sign an agreement, but our everyday life is to give the best service as we can to Sremm. I don’t know which are their intentions for the future. And not only with Sremm, right? Because we are commercially working with everybody.

So of course SQM is a shareholder and we are trying to give them.

SQM Funding and Future Plans

Gabriel Toffani: Extra super excellent service and we are trying to do the same with the other companies, of course,

Antoine Walter: is you raised 27 million. What do you want to do with that money?

Gabriel Toffani: there are a few things. First of all, of course, we need to run the company. And we need finance for that today. We are commercializing, just the test, which give us some income, but not enough. maybe you realize that we were two years ago, about 20 people. we are 50 today.

Expanding Commercial Presence

Gabriel Toffani: So that has caused, and then , we want to reinforce our commercial presence.

We have a Very small commercial team. So we are, trying to develop our commercial forces on one side and on the other, Even if we have the fly on X model we need for the brines we are addressing today, we have a lot of research subjects that we want to develop and that costs money.

Innovations in Lithium Extraction Technology

Gabriel Toffani: we are trying to develop more efficient fly on X for our lower or higher concentrations, lower to be competitive, higher to be even more competitive. We are also, addressing the lithium battery recycling subject. We are trying to extend the use of our technology to the hard rock market as well.

And then you can imagine more. So we are going to invest also in, in,research. And last but not least, might need capex to have more, pilots for demonstration. So we might invest the part of that in new pilots. Right

Hard Rock and Battery Recycling

Antoine Walter: You mentioned two things here. One, which I had spotted, which is the battery recycling thing. So I’ll come to that later. Let’s take the other one, which I had not spotted. How do you play into hard rock in the value chain of Spodumene? At what stage can your technology come into play?

Gabriel Toffani: we are talking about a liquid liquid technology, so we are not going to make a rock liquid now. after this deviation, there’s the same in the black mass. You need to make this deviation and then we can go with our technology. So the hard rock will depend how many stages you have, how complex is your process after insidiation.

Antoine Walter: we will have places where we think we can be competitive. this is a kind of end of research subject. We are not ready to industrialize but we will be in the next step. months or years, So that means. Just a wild guess that you’re coming into the value chain of lithium refining. So after lixiviation, that means you would be competing with ion exchange and this kind of technologies, and depending on the complexity and the impurities, which are at that stage, you might be more competitive than an exchange on specific cases.

Gabriel Toffani: Yeah. and we always, have the advantage that we produce very pure, lithium chloride, or maybe in the future lithium sulfate. , which is not today a lot the case in the battery lithium recycling, right? So that will, we hope give us an advantage.

Antoine Walter: Battery recycling is Europe’s bet. I don’t know if anyone really formalized that that way, but again, from my point of view, when you look at the way Europe developed its value chain, the bet is if recycling becomes big enough, then Europe can reduce its dependency on

Gabriel Toffani: Yeah.

Antoine Walter: the other geographies.

Geographical Focus and Market Strategy

Antoine Walter: Is that the wave you intend to ride or do you also target other geographies?

Gabriel Toffani: I cannot say we are geography agnostic because it’s not true. Our focus 99. 9 percent is the lithium triangle and those brines, right? Then we will try to address battery recycling all over right? We don’t have a vocation to be just european so we could do that in the us will be a lot of recycling companies, but of course that will allow us to work in europe as well, but We are not focusing just in european market.

Antoine Walter: 99. 9 percent of your focus is on South America.

Gabriel Toffani: Yes, sir.

Antoine Walter: I closed. A narrative arc last year, when I published my video on the topic, you probably didn’t see it. won’t blame you for that. just to give you a bit of context,

Gabriel Toffani: yeah

Antoine Walter: coming from the East of France. In the East of France, we used to have potash mines. Those potash mines were developed by the same people that later developed the potash mines in Atacama, which ended up being what we know today as both Albemarle and Esquim operations in Atacama. So that’s the link between both of them. It happens that when those mines closed, they kept doing some analyzes of the water inside.

And it turns out there’s quite a lot of lithium in those potash mines, 400 ppm. When I’m hearing that your sweet spot starts north of 250,

Gabriel Toffani: Yes, sir.

Antoine Walter: I would expect that, , I give you a ring and I say, look, I have three cubic meters of that brine and 400.

PPM lithium. Would you be interested or would you tell me, ah, 99. 9 person means we don’t have the bandwidth to take a crazy guy story out of Eastern France.

Gabriel Toffani: let’s explain to your public that in France, people coming from Marseille used to exaggerate. So I’m not coming from Marseille, but it looks like it’s not 99. 9 lithium triangle because we are addressing projects in the US as well. But from brines, right? And you know what? One of the brines we are addressing now is from a potash company.

We already made tests and with excellent results. So we are trying to go farther on that. I cannot tell you much more, but the answer to that client should be, of course, and we did the answer already.

Company Growth and New Offices

Antoine Walter: In terms of company building, when you joined, were there already 20 people or was that prior to the series B?

when I joined two years and something ago, we were something like, 18, I guess. so now you’re opening, an arm in South America,

Gabriel Toffani: Yeah. In Argentina.

Antoine Walter: Argentina. guess it’s probably the first time that Adionix builds another office abroad. So how do you build that? Because there are lots of time zones difference, a lot of thousands of kilometers

Gabriel Toffani: we are going to show technology in real conditions there. So we need to be there. , there’s not two possibilities. So we started, opening a subsidiary in Argentina. We might do the same in Chile. And, we hired to start a manager and now we have six engineers.

I knew the manager from my former life. So that confidence is very important when you are far away. not that difficult. So that’s running very well. We have very good engineers there. They did run the test in Atacama. They are going to run the pilots in North Argentina with local people.

Right. We have two people in Chile, four in Argentina. So

Lithium Market Trends and Challenges

Antoine Walter: I know that one should not obsess over the lithium spot price in China, that it’s just one temperature of the water or whatever we want to call it. It’s not the temperature of the full ocean yet. It is true that it is down. We’re back roughly the same levels than it was in 2017, 2018.

Gabriel Toffani: yeah.

Antoine Walter: When I left Salta last year, so roughly, I guess at the same time that you left Salta, , each regions had 20 products in the development and with the current lithium price, it seems like it’s slowing down. Are you feeling that as well? And does it have implication on your daily business?

Gabriel Toffani: we are feeling the same, some companies, even big companies, officially declare they are slowing down So yes, we do feel that, then we can guess whatever you want is going to go up or not soon or not. I’m not going to make any guess because it’s not my business.

But the world will need lithium in any case. the price we have today. most of the South American brands, we can still make profitable, competitive plants. you can look at that as an opportunity. As I told you, we believe we have a very low CapEx and OPEX.

So we said, maybe these will even be a booster for our technology because There will be a selection  you know, when the lithium was a 90 kilogram, , even if you need to heat the whole brine at 80 degrees, you could pay that. And in two years you got your money back today is much more selective, right?

So maybe that will be a boost for our technology. And I hope it will.

Antoine Walter: That’s my point. That’s why I wanted you to have your opinion. It’s that when the lithium price was stupidly high or incredibly high, depending on how you want to see it. We saw that very low value assets were developed like Lepidolite mines. And also we saw that the high end DLE. We’re not pushed that much, because if the price is so high, what you want to do is produce as fast as possible and push it out to the market because whatever it costs you, if you can sell it, you make money.

And so there was a big revival of all the. Let’s call it, dough style DLE. So the 60, 60s patent from dough what livens is doing in Argentina and what some are doing in China, because that works, that’s proven to work. We know that it can’t be the most efficient, but it works. If now you have to be selective because yeah, you still have to be profitable. You’re not. pushing out lithium in the market to lose money, I would see that as a win for you.

Gabriel Toffani: I think this could be a boost for us.

Future of DLE Technologies

Gabriel Toffani: and then if you ask me, what’s going to happen with the 50 or 60 DLE companies today, I guess in the coming years will be like in a lot of markets, a consolidation, and maybe in a few years you will have, I wouldn’t say three, but maybe 10 and those will be.

Of course, the more performant and the more competitive, and of course, we think we are going to be one of those three or 10, right? because of our technology and of our costs.

Antoine Walter: let me give you a devil’s advocate question here. And then I’ll leave you in peace with that question. Let’s assume that this new generation of DLE makes it. When I had that conversation with Ben Sparrow from Saltworks, he was saying generation one is this dough style, generation two is when you backwash with acid, but it’s still an adsorbent.

And then generation three would be membranes, ion exchange, solvent extraction, now one of these generation three technology makes it big time, let’s say, Lilac makes it big time and Ion Exchange becomes the big thing. Would that be problematic to you? Because you’re not doing Ion Exchange, you’re doing something which is probably in the same waters in terms of CAPEX and OPEX, but if the market is risk averse and one of your incumbent technologies makes it big time, then maybe why take the risk for something which is slightly better, maybe?

I take your case exactly as you are describing, it could be a problem, but I’m not quite sure that’s, , in the real life, what I think is going to happen is that at least one company in each technology are very advanced. And we’ll be in, let’s say, two or three years. Plants running with at least one of each of the existing good processes, including ours.

Gabriel Toffani: And then we will see the reality of who is working and who is not. So I don’t think this will go for a single DLE technology. It will be, as I told you, between three and ten that will develop, and there will be space for those three to, let’s say, three to five.

Go.

Personal Insights and Career Reflections

Antoine Walter: to round off that deep dive, I have a personal question for you because we shortly discussed before starting the recording about our respective pasts, we’ve been working for the same company, not at the same level. I was like the guy just next to the door and you were on the top of the food chain.

Gabriel Toffani: That’s not why I didn’t talk to you in Salta, to make it very clear, right?

Antoine Walter: don’t worry. But to be serious, you’ve had an impressive career amongst DeGremont, Suez, and all those layers. It’s a big leap of faith in 2022 to say, I believe in that ad unit company, which is 18 people by the time you join, that’s going to make it big time. And I’ll go do that. So what drives you to that leap of faith?

Gabriel Toffani: I was only 32 years in the Swiss group, you know, many countries around the world. in one moment I felt it was okay. It was enough. I was not going to be CEO of the group. We were going to be sold to Veolia, which is another subject. I mean, I like a lot to Veolia people, but

so I just said, let’s go to do something different. And I did look to a lot of startups to be honest. And once again, , I don’t know. It was a feat with Adionix, Adionix board, Guillaume, the technology. This looks a bit as water treatment as she knows, or it’s not completely different, but enough.

And once again, after two and a half years, , I’m very happy because all what I’ve been told before coming, it was like that and it’s true. , I am in the. I hope not in the end of my career, but near, right? I’m 65 years old. So, I mean, I think nothing to show to nobody.

And I’m having a lot of fun. , at the end, it has a great team, you know? So It’s a pleasure after all those years working in a big group to be in a startup and trying To help things to get done for what at the end what we want is that the only succeed but Helping the green mobility, which is I think a good subject, right?

So that means that your North star is that in five, 10, or whenever you want to put the big KPI, your way to measure if you were successful or not is the impact you will have on the green mobility.

of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Antoine Walter: And how do you measure that?

Gabriel Toffani: if there’s a lot of lithium produced in the triangle, but everywhere else in the Very green way that will be the way to measure it. And of course, if adionics is the DLE leader from far, that will help you that. So I hope both things will happen.

Antoine Walter: I said, it was the last question. I lied. I have one more just on this TLE topic, just because I want to wash that off of my head. I had a conversation two weeks ago with Carlos Galli from Lithium Americas at the Global Water Summit. I hope I’m not breaching any secret here. but we were discussing water use and how.

That’s important. And I see that that’s clearly one of the perks of your technology. So I’m thinking, could you also be a combination with evaporation ponds in places which already have evaporation ponds anyways, that they would be just increasing their efficiency by bolting on LDLE technology, which happens to not consume too much water, which is sometimes a drawback of DLE.

Gabriel Toffani: Yeah, of course. can do that. And we are studying a few places where we could pre concentrate. we developed with existing bones and then just get the concentrate brine, which I told you, we are much more efficient. So the answer is yes, of course.

Antoine Walter: Well, Gabriel, it’s been a pleasure to spend that deep dive with you. Thanks a lot for the openness.

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Rapid fire questions:

Antoine Walter: my first one is what is the toughest challenge in your opinion for a water tech startup?

Gabriel Toffani: it’s definitely to hire the right people. , that’s a completely important thing.

Antoine Walter: What would be your best single piece of advice for the founders and managers of the about 1, 000 early stage water startups?

Gabriel Toffani: I tell you, I’m a very humble person. I don’t think I can give any, advice, but, I said hire the right people and I think when you are the CEO you just Make that people happy and the company is going to work And then of course from the CEO place, I think you need two things Hear your clients, hear your board, make your people happy, and that’s enough.

So you see, you can work three, four hours a day, do that, and that’s fine.

Antoine Walter: What’s the drop of knowledge you wish more investors knew about the water sector?

 That’s the real future of the lithium production from brines is the DLE, the future, not the evaporation. I’ll take a very short sidetrack here. I have sometimes the impression when discussing with investors that they are maybe a bit too convinced about that. And what I mean about that is that they expect DLE to be so much of a solution that almost the entire world produced lithium out of DLE. Within two years, which is twice wrong, as you know, I mean, I’m not teaching anything to you, but it’s wrong because spodumene and evaporation bonds will not go away or not, at least not that fast.

And second, within two years, nothing’s going to happen. And the downside of that is that when they expect something to drastically change that fast, Then when they realize that it’s not changing that fast, they’re disappointed. And then they can start disbelieving everything, even though it’s just a natural course of events.

So my two cents, , what was your most unexpected partnership and what did it bring you?

Gabriel Toffani: there are many, but, talking to lawyers, a few days ago, and it was, they had a great commercial idea. So that makes me think you need, any kind of people can have great ideas. So treat everybody the same and you will get great ideas for everybody.

Antoine Walter: That’s a cool one. Super short, profitability or growth?

Gabriel Toffani: Can I take both? No.

Antoine Walter: You have to pick

Gabriel Toffani: So let’s say profitability.

Antoine Walter: what is the next profile you’ll hire? And I’ll use that question to mention that I saw that you have six job offers on your website. So probably if someone listening to that wants to reach out,

Gabriel Toffani: , we are having a lot of things to do. We are going to hire a project manager officer to take care of all that. So I think It’s a very important and passionate, place to work

Antoine Walter: looking for someone in France or in Argentina.

Gabriel Toffani: in France.

Antoine Walter: When you hire that project manager or someone else, are you looking for sector experience, like lithium sector experience or startup experience?

Gabriel Toffani: Can I add a third possibility or not?

Antoine Walter: Yeah, sure.

I should say now, if I need to choose, I should maybe choose sector experience, but most attitude, you know, it’s a kind of, positive, solving, happy and, smiling. That’s a very important. And then the rest, but sector experience, I guess. It needs to fit your existing culture. Makes sense. opening new markets or doubling down on the current ones.

Gabriel Toffani: All your questions, I want to say both, but okay, say I find very funny opening new markets, but let’s take that one, but we are doubling down on bright as well. Don’t worry.

Antoine Walter: What’s that tool nobody speaks about, but you couldn’t live without?

Gabriel Toffani: I still run marathons and make Iron Man, so that’s my tool to be okay every morning.

Antoine Walter: Super cool. I never got that one. So.

Gabriel Toffani: I don’t know anything about real tools, so forget it. I’m not a good example.

Antoine Walter: What’s the single piece of insight, your ideal customer profile, which if I get right, is a mining company needs to hear right now,

Gabriel Toffani: Okay, we already said that we have the best process at the best price. and we are, people in which you can trust.

Antoine Walter: what are you desperately needing and you want to raise an open call for right now,

I don’t need anything desperate. Thank God.Well, Gabriel, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks a lot for the openness in answering all those

questions. And I’m looking forward to that sequel in six months.

Gabriel Toffani: Okay. Thanks for having me.

Antoine Walter: Thank you.

Gabriel Toffani: Next time Insalta call me Gabriel and I will turn around and talk to you.

Antoine Walter: Sounds good.

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